To preamp or not to preamp. That is the question.

The two items are color and resolution.  Digital volume controls are a lot better now than they were, but a linear volume control has less chance of muddying the digitial signal, or at least they would with early DAC's.

The other reason is color.  Sweetness, bass extension, treble detail.

The idea IMHO, if you ignore the possible (and now small) effects of digital volume controls, is whether it actually sounds BETTER to you.  Not measurably better.  Pleasurably better.

You have heard this before; "The preamp is the heart of a system". You can argue that from many angles, but millions of audiophiles are not wrong. 

I've tried going without a preamp three times with different components. While the sound was 'okay/listenable' twice and unpleasant once, all three times the music quality (and my enjoyment) increased once I placed my tube pre back in the loop. Apparently, I enjoy jb52's 'noise and distortion' in my systems. 😁  That said, I know guys who don't use a preamp, and they're perfectly happy with their sound. 

I’d be hard pressed to think a good preamp wouldn’t make a major improvement over using the Node as a pre. If you were using a Bricasti and its volume control I might have a different opinion, but using the Node as a pre? No, just no. The Node 2i is a streamer, DAC, and preamp for $600 — using common sense, how much do you think they spent on the preamp components?  The preamp is too important to the overall sound quality of a system. FWIW, and best of luck.

Any time a component can be eliminated from the chain the result is better sound!

Not if the output of the device is a mismatch. Bluesound Node 2i is designed to plug into a preamp, a preamp is designed to plug into an amplifier. The signals a preamp is looking for is different than what an amp is looking for. Can it work without a preamp? Often it can, but in most cases it is a better signal match if plugged into a preamp/processor. 

Not heard a Node 2i but own a Vault 2 which probably sounds close enough. The Bluesound is a fine device for the money but the DAC is the weak link. On its own I would not recommend bypassing a really good preamp. If you’re considering a preamp I would recommend looking for a standalone DAC with preamp and use your Node just as a streamer which it’s very good at. I use a RME ADI 2fs and go direct to my amp which sounds great. Unless I’m spinning vinyl my preamp stays out of the chain. 
 

If you’re using the stock power cord on your Node look for an aftermarket as for little money it will improve things. I built my own purchasing parts from VH Audio but many on here recommend the Cullen C7.

 @soix The Node 2i is a streamer, DAC, and preamp for $600 — using common sense, how much do you think they spent on the preamp components?  The preamp is too important to the overall sound quality of a system. FWIW, and best of luck.

An intelligent and rational observation. Yet don’t you realize a preamplifier no matter how accomplished is merely adding “noise and distortion”? 😊

Charles

I’ve tried it both ways, two different times, and each time I decided to keep the preamp. I use a Cambridge 851N streamer/DAC feeding a Bel Canto PRE5 to Bel Canto ref500 monoblocks, driving Dali Mentor 6 floorstanders. With the preamp in the system, I believe I heard more of a difference when switching from Morrow MA5s to Kimber KS1116s, both XLR. Both sound excellent but I felt more of a difference between them with the preamp in the chain. What I am sure of is that the sound is better with the preamp in. specifically the opening notes of A Chloris: A Chloris, track one on A Concert at the Time of Proust. The period instruments (piano and violin) are just more real with the preamp in the chain. No contest.

If you can get a preamp with room correction that would be a plus.

There are basically 4 different kinds of preamps.

1. A pot in a box, it can be just a line level resistive rheostat or more favourably, stepped resistors. Totally passive, no mains power.

2. Line level preamp. No gain but a more sophisticated version of the above, using mains input for various functions.

3. Digital preamp, digital volume control. Volume is controlled by manipulating the digital signal in the digital domain. Degrades sound quality by stripping bits.

4. Active preamp. This preamp, whether solid state or tube will add space, resolution, soundstaging, imaging etc. to your system. Unfortunately they are quite expensive. Usually $15k and above.

Only an active preamp is capable of synergising your system, everything else is a poor compromise. 

While I agree with the previous post about the types of preamps that exist, I don't think the $15K price point for No. 4 is necessary.

I have built tube preamps and bought tube preamps and I have rarely spent more than $6K. Particularly, if you search through the quality Used market. A well-made tube preamp should last for many years. Tubes can be rolled/upgraded at will.

In fact, I currently have a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium tube preamp that was less than $3K. Tube rolled in some NOS Mullard 12AU7's and pushing an NAD M23 SS amplifier. Truly a wonderful sounding system, with a wide soundstage, a bit of warmth, with the minimal distortion and solid punch of the NAD. 

to keep it simple, same number of pieces, perhaps change to an integrated amp (includes preamp) with remote volume and any other desireable features.

you keep the existing amp available for ... or sell it.

Thanks for all the wonderful input. I am fully aware of the limitations of the DAC in the Node 2i as agd 101 pointed out. It's serviceable but not great.

On my main system my upgrade path was Node 2i , then node 2i with a Musician R2R Dac, then Lumin u1 Mini with Musician DAC. The Node was put back into service with this recent second system. 

Lordmelton pointed out several options. Since I do need more gain, option 1 and 2 are out. No doubt a good tube preamp brings much to the table and in my main system I use a Conrad Johnson LS17 line stage into some Quicksilver Monoblock Poweramps.... so I get that. However, with this second system, I want something rather less costly with a smaller form factor due to space/cosmetic considerations. Also I need a remote control. And so I will likely try something solid state, and see if it yields any improvement. There seems to be enough opinion here to support the fact that a preamp will improve things

What is budget for the preamp?

If you think your preamp is adding quality to the presentation, where is it getting it?  I like to look at the signal path as 100% as digitally stored on the medium.  Every time you touch it to DAC it, to preamp it, to amplifty it, you try not to degrade it.  

I'm a minimalist when it comes to signal path.  Great tube amp designers agree.  I use my DAC is my preamp (since I listen only to digital signals).  

Keep it as simple as possible.  

DAC is Chord Dave.

Jerry

Budget is around $1000. I don't mind buying used, prefer it in fact.

@alvinnir2 I will likely try something solid state, and see if it yields any improvement. There seems to be enough opinion here to support the fact that a preamp will improve things

Yep! This is the logical and most thorough approach. Compare both options and listen for yourself. Audio forums have endless threads about active preamp versus passive/direct connection to amplifier. Quite a few experience listeners have tried both and (As expected) each choice has its advocates.

In my listening experience,  the use of a high quality active preamplifier provides The better sounding option. However, that’s just my outcome experience and you need to find out for yourself.

Charles 

1000.00 dollars? Shop carefully, a mediocre preamplifier won’t elevate what you currently have. Preamplifier has to have good design, part quality and implementation. Otherwise it’s a pointless endeavor.

Charles

@charles1dad

+1

I would be careful not to underfund a preamp. I would recommend doubling your budget, and buy used. The preamp can really enhance your system. But a real budget one will not. I recommend a used tubed preamp not more than ten to fifteen years old.

I believe there is a PS Audio video on YouTube in which Paul says he now believes a preamp to be a necessary introduction to a stereo system.

I second, third, the need for a good preamp. As others have asked, what is your budget?

Bob

I'm a minimalist when it comes to signal path. 

Way back in the day, I drove an amp with my CD player. It was the shortest path. The problem was it sounded like a digital version of music. It didn't last the day, it was awful. The addition of a preamp smoothed out all the problems. If your system is good enough, it needs a good preamp.

I used to own this Bryston BP6 preamp and would be shocked if it didn’t vastly improve the sound of your system.  Downside is I think you’d need to by a remote from Bryston as doesn’t look like this one comes with it. 
 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255749482434

BTW, here’s a review I wrote of it and subsequently bought the review sample fyi…

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/equipment/bryston_bp6_cseries.htm

Best of luck. 

Thanks for that soix. I'll keep my eye out for something like that. Being in Canada I'd like to try to source something up here to avoid high shipping, duty, taxes etc.

I have tried going direct from more than one DAC direct into an amp and it sounded OK , not spectacular.    Put a great preamp in the loop and BAM , everything snaps back into focus, has depth , bass, and great extension.  A soul.....

If your system sounds great sans preamp that's great but it's not for me.   

@oddiofyl 

Put a great preamp in the loop and BAM , everything snaps back into focus, has depth , bass, and great extension.  A soul

Yep! My experience as well. Holistic, breath of life, more of a complete and realistic sonic-music rendering presentation.

There are smart and talented designers with good ears who exert much time and effort to produce these excellent preamplifiers. I'm grateful these folks exist.

Charles

Even in my early days of separates I always spent more to get the best preamp I could .  It is the heart of a great system, absolutely without question.    Anyone that strongly disagrees most likely has never had a class leading or world class preamp in their system or has never had first hand experience with a reference quality preamp.   I have , and I sold it to fund my endgame preamp.   

OK, you are looking for more gain for a secondary system with a 1K budget and willing to buy used. This is doable and I believe will prove beneficial.

Now on to the search.

A separate preamplifier is needed for sure.  Like another user already said, it is the heart of a system.

Adding a decent active preamp that has a circuitry amplifying line level voltage over the unit gain and a good volume attenuator will likely give better, more refined sound quality over a simpler path chain. Even my Dac -> Cambridge integrated amplifier -> speakers chain sounds sweeter than the Dac -> Parasound power amp (w/ unit gain control) -> speakers chain.

No pre here, but I'm either spoiled or ruined.... ;)

Thanks for that soix. I'll keep my eye out for something like that. Being in Canada I'd like to try to source something up here to avoid high shipping, duty, taxes etc

@alvinnir2 I think Bryson are made in the Great White North.

Yes, Bryston is very well made in Our Home and Native Land with a 20-year warranty. 

I initially did what you are considering when I set up a bedroom system, including using a Node.  I found the sound dull and lifeless.  After adding a preamp the system came to life.  So much better after inserting the preamp.  Regarding how much to spend, well I used a Schiit Freya for less than a thousand bucks.  Did it do the job? Yes and beautifully. Will a better, more expensive pre be better.  Most likely.  Only you can answer that. In my case the Freya did a fine job relative to the other equipment in the system and was well worth the modest investment. 

Should also say based on the other components in your system, all of which I have owned at one time or another, I think you will be extremely happy with the Freya.

@marco1 Yes I was thinking about suggesting the Freya as an option. Many on this site seem to enjoy that pre. 

Right now on AG there is a Black Ice Fusion 9 MKII tube pream listing for $999. Black ICe was formerly Jolida. I once owned the Jolida Fusion preamp and feld it to be quite good at the price point ($1500). Not sure what the Fushion 9 retailed at. 

You’re running a Forte 4a? Well good for you! I had a pair of them in monoblocks. Or were those the 7a’s. Can’t remember. Anyway they were great running ML’s!

I am fully aware of the limitations of the DAC in the Node 2i as agd 101 pointed out. It's serviceable but not great.

I have a Node 2i (although it hasn't been plugged in for a while.)  Seems to me, its weakness isn't so much its DAC as its preamp capabilities. Specifically, its volume control. I've A/B compared a feed from the Node 2i via (A) its digital outputs and  (B) its analog outputs. From "A", I was hearing the DAC in a more expensive downstream component (equipped with the ESS 9028 chip IIRC). From "B", I was hearing the DAC in the Node 2i.  I noticed no difference in SQ. YMMV.

However, when I've switched from digital/software volume control in the Node 2i to analog or hybrid digital/analog volume control in a downstream device, I noticed a rather significant SQ improvement. Again, YMMV (and maybe I'm not remembering every detail of these comparisons). But I suspect you could improve the SQ by moving the volume control downstream, whether to (1) a decent dedicated preamp, (2) a better streamer/DAC/preamp box, or (3) a decent integrated amp. Currently, I'm using option 2 (a Matrix Audio Element X).  If I wanted to try option 1, I'd be considering the Benchmark LA4 (a line amplifier that goes for about $2600 and gets very strong reviews.)

Music first baby reference V2  TVC passive has changed my life worth every bit of 7k

Budget is around $1000. I don't mind buying used, prefer it in fact.

With that budget and being a bedroom system, I am wondering if it good enough “as is.”

Do you do a lot of careful and critical listening in there? Or is it mostly mood music?

I have a Bluesound Node 2i. I haven't tried using it alone for volume control...yet.  Will have to try.  I originally bought NAD M51 as DAC only (about $550 used) but tried as preamp and struggle to find something significantly better.  New price I have only gotten up to about $6k with tube pres, but the main benefit has been better gain matching for my 24 WPC tube amp whereas NAD had plenty for SS. Maybe my speakers or my ears aren't good enough to tell the differences or the NAD is just very good. I definitely recommend it at its used price point. 

I've yet to experience the pre as the heart of the system though I've heard some say this. Maybe I need to spend $15k. The speakers and amp are the heart for my experiences,  but that's just from what I've been able to try in my rig. 

@holmz 

I don't do my critical listening on this second system. It's not in my bedroom but in my living room. My critical listening is with my primary system in a dedicated room in my basement. So it, as it stands, is "good enough" but I will happily entertain an improvement if cost effective.

@alvinnir2

I think for around 1000 USD you may get a second hand Threshold FET ten, which is probably still one of the most transparent preamp ever built.It will reveal any change in your equipment, and will be soon moved to your main system.

I had a similar question, a fee weeks ago, and comparing the direct DAC ouput with the usage of the pre, I had no doubts: to preamp, there is no question.

Any change on DAC volume lead to a degraded sound, while any change on preamp volume was completely transparent.

Usage of preamp let me to setup the DAC at his best (fixed max volume), and let the preamp manage volume.

An excellent preamp is the key to audio bliss.

My two cents: A few years ago I was using a Mytek Manhattan as a DAC .  Amplification was Parasound, the JC pre and power amps.  Had a problem with the pre and it took weeks to get it repaired so I tried using the Manhattan as the pre.  Mytek was marketing it as a pre/DAC combo.  The sound was harsh and fatiguing. After a few weeks I inserted my prior preamp, a Cary SLP3, a tubed preamp that cost around two grand at the time.  I fell in love with the Cary and now the Parasound remains in storage..

  Especially considering that the Node is the current preamp in the discussion here, I think an active preamp, virtually any active preamp, will be an improvement.  I think the suggestion that only $15K will bring the desired result is silly.  First off, it’s a second system, and that kind of expenditure is probably not possible, and would be outsized compared with the rest of the components.

  Since the OP is Canadian, I would be looking for a used Bryston preamp.  I am assuming that Bryston ownership is more prevalent in Canada, and therefore there may be more used Bryston equipment available than in the U.S.  Bryston makes great amplification and they have a 20 year warranty, which is transferable.  The alternative would be to go tubed, and Rouge Audio might fit the bill here

One way of looking at this, since it is your second system is that you have an opportunity to do something fun, as opposed to good enough.

Ever fascinated with the idea of a real warm and romantic sound? From your other post… this sounds like it could be a winner. Or a very polite detailed sound… I couldn’t find your components. But this is a great opportunity to explore a different sounding system.

I had always wanted to try “the 300B” sound… so a few years ago I upgraded my headphone system to a high end 300B sound. I was so overwhelmed by the beautiful sound it caused me to completely revamp my main system away from highly detailed / slam oriented system to a much warmer more musical system. This was the best and largest shift my system took in fifty years.

@ghdprentice 

I had always wanted to try “the 300B” sound… so a few years ago I upgraded my headphone system to a high end 300B sound. I was so overwhelmed by the beautiful sound it caused me to completely revamp my main system away from highly detailed / slam oriented system to a much warmer more musical system. This was the best and largest shift my system took in fifty years

Understood. Let your ears and natural spontaneous reactions guide the way. Let it be limbic system dominant.

Charles