… "And the government shall be upon his shoulders"
As I was getting up this morning, the local classical station was playing Handel's Messiah and that familiar phrase above is oft repeated, as I am sure you are well aware. It has always struck me as quite strange. I am hoping some of our musicological members can help me understand the meaning and intent of Handel giving that phrase such a prominent place in the work. Certainly, it seems to run counter to Christ's own teaching that we should "render under Caesar, the things that are Caesar's, and to God, the things that are God's".
I am aware that our modern American notion of separation of church and state was not the case in the Europe of Handel's time. Also that the medieval church had maneuvered itself into the rather convenient arrangement with earthly Kings that their right to rule proceeded from God. Which was known as the divine right of kings. This fortuitous arrangement put the church officials in the position of validating earthly power as the manifestation of God's will. But all of that still doesn't quite square with the mantra, "and the government shall be upon his shoulders".
From everything I have ever learned Christ did not give a fig for earthly power. Is this as big a contradiction as it appears? Is Handel's Messiah a propaganda piece?
** From everything I have ever learned Christ did not give a fig for earthly power ** Not so. Well, not “power” in the usual earthly sense. As with most things and certainly as concerns the teachings of Christian religion context is key. In this case (Christianity) the context is the concept of faith. Perhaps this will help: http://app.newlifeag.in/content/blog/and-government-will-be-his-shoulders
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@frogman Interesting piece which seems to give undue weight to Old Testament prophecies, Isaiah, over Christ's actual teachings, "My kingdom is not of this world". Also the sermon referred to seems prone to a fair dose of wishful thinking. Fascinating that Dec 25 in India is "Good Governance Day" in India. I don't believe we have such a day in the U.S.. But you could be right that this was the line of thought going on in Handle's mind. |
quick finds vary, I once read that Handel was not religious, simply wrote it for money. excerpt: "Handel, in financial trouble, was sent a manuscript by the writer Charles Jennens entitled Messiah." https://www.praeclara.org/?page_id=641 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Frideric_Handel
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By coincidence, the December 25th edition of the New York Times had a wonderful article on Charles Jennens who provided the text for Handel's Messiah. The article titled "Two Men Wrote The Messiah. You Know One Of Them." is linked here: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/25/opinion/handel-messiah-holiday-hope.html?smid=em-share
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He throw the merchant tables outside of the temple. Christ was not interested by power but does not means that he was indifferent to power exercise... Imagine his reaction about control over not only church but school and work... Christ was not a marxist but certainly not a Smith disciple... And Haendel write music to eat for sure, but that does not means he does not put his heart writing music...
Christ only can govern earth social fabric , why ?
Because it will be a multipolar social fabric instead of a monolithical Roman Empire power. Or a techno-cultist control of people... Christ govern by authority not power imposition... Even our education is unfree from lobbies as our politic... We dont wait for Christ physical on physical earth but inside our heart and thinking not as a religion but as a way to be... I put as most people "the Messiah" on par with Bach works... Incredible genius...
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Great insights @elliottbnewcombjr . I especially like this quote from praeclara.org: "Why then did Handel compose Messiah? Or more precisely, why did he dare? The immediate answer is that by 1741 Handel’s life and career were in trouble. Not only was he deeply in debt and partially paralyzed by stroke, but his latest Old Testament oratorios, including Israel in Egypt, had been poorly received. When the Duke of Devonshire invited him to compose a work for a concert in Dublin to raise money for a variety of charities (including the Charitable Musical Society for the Relief of Imprisoned Debtors), Handel most likely decided upon Messiah in the belief that an oratorio based on “new material”� — the New Testament — might succeed where his previous oratorios had failed and that perhaps the concert’s Christian charitable purpose would shield him from charges of committing sacrilege. Even then, Handel took extra precautions. Although Messiah is about the life and passion of Jesus, more than half its texts derive from the Old Testament." and, "Handel’s own attitudes toward Messiah remain a mystery, and we will probably never know if he intended this work as a clever career move or as a tribute to God, or, as is quite possible, both." |
Welcome back @mahgister , I haven’t seen you around these parts for quite a spell partner. I Hope you have been well. As far as Handel's genius goes, I much prefer his Water Music and Royal Fireworks music. Given that I have never been able to make myself into an Opera fan, I have sat though two versions of the complete Oratorio in my life and I sincerely doubt there will be a third. For me it's all about the Hallelujah Chorus then it's done. :-) |
Thanks my friend i was well just absent a bit...
It is difficult to change our conditioning habit... I like choral music more than anything and vocal music because even as a baby my father sing me songs and i listened each noon without knowing even school a radio program with folk choral music , folklore or sacred or popular with three or 4 voices most of the times... I am not an opera fan as you but a sacred music and folklore or world music choral fan (Armenian,Russian,pygmees african choral, byzantium,old gregorian etc )
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@mahgister That is a great memory to have of your father! I like vocals well enough if I like the music they are embedded in. World and folk, great usually, classic jazz great, Choral, often, gregorian has always been mesmerizing. It is the style of Opera singing that I can't warm to. It seems too artificial. Ironically that may be what others see as the ART of it. I don't cotton to musicals much either, not suprisingly since they are really just modern opera for the most part. Pardon the broad generalizations above. |
There is a second comming of christ where every knee will bow.he will reign with purity and truth according to the book of revelation in the new testiment.as a surgeon i had many patients trauma very bad from accidents.when I got them out of the hospital and back to followup in the office I had several that stated they had the opportunity to stay or go.it was so frequent I doubt it was the anesthesia. 3 states 3 choppers and a jet brought bad trauma in for decades. I hope i have not cast my pearls before the swine. Keep safe stay healthy and enjoy the music.people in any job can be inspired for the good of mankind from on high. |
Not impressed by the Jesus myths myself, with which Handel took many liberties, "government upon his shoulders" being a large one. Whose government? The Sanhedrin were having none of that, prevailing on the Romans to kill this dissident, cult-leading troublemaker in their midst. Or so the legends go. That said, Handel's oratorios are incomparably magnificent, "Messiah" included. In fact, if I could sing just one thing, it would be "Every Valley" pouring into "Refiner's Fire." With Hogwood and the Ancients, of course. Don't share the sentiments but do revere the music. |
The lyrics were taken from Isaiah 9:6. A messianic prophesy written 700 years before Christ's birth. “The government will be upon on His shoulders” affirms His lordship uber alles. This is a prophesy of the Millennium. It speaks of and anticipates the time when Christ will reign over a literal, earthly, geopolitical kingdom that encompasses all the kingdoms and governments of the world. The Millennium s a post rapture earth where the enemies of Christ have been damned to hell for eternity and Jesus The Prince Of Peace sits on the throne of the world in Jerusalem as the Wonderful, Counselor adjudicating righteousness and peace to the great pleasure of the inhabitants of the earth. |
@jonwolfpell + 1 |
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. Well, considering there is no substantiated proof Christ even existed I don't see how any of this is even a thing. Debating the writings of men in ancient history is silly in modern days. You cannot compare historic writings to the modern day when we know so much more than they did. They relied on religion for everything today we know better. Well, many of us do anyway.
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A simple article from a technological magazine about Christ historical more than probable fact here : https://bigthink.com/thinking/was-jesus-real/ and men of the past were not ignorant and in many case more awake than the North American average man today... Think about Nature and practical knowledge Think about spiritual experiences etc .. Now for technology listen to this stupendous documentary about the Barabar cave and try to make one with Bill Gates money : |
@waytoomuchstuff That is one of the nicest compliments to this group and I agree with you that this has been a good discussion and sharing. Special thanks also to @sargonicuse ! That opinion piece from the Times is great! I was slow to getting to read it but it gives real insight. I think there is a lesson to be learned, and I will just speak for myself here, but this also speaks to our most recent contributors to the thread. There was a tension about the intermingling of Church and State, probably more in Handel's time than in ours. (King George had just created his own state religion.) Handel at the time of the writing of the Messiah was in need of money and politically had been aligned firmly with the Anglican Church and the king of England who was his major patron. He seized on the text offered by one of his patrons and created a religious oratorio that turned out to be both artistic and monetary success. We know that religion was not likely the foremost thought in Handel's mind during this process. However, there were persuasive references from the Old Testament portions of the libretto that emphasized the linkage of earthly and heavenly power, and he chose to showcase those to the great approval of his king. George the third, who stood upon first hearing it as it was said he recognized it as "the national anthem of Heaven". Those of us schooled in the Christian tradition may find his elevation of the Old Testament over the words of Christ himself a bit perplexing, especially with regard to the importance of earthly power. Christ in several instances, made clear that "his kingdom was not of this world" despite the many Old Testament references and explicit declarations that he would rule physically in this world. The fact that the millennium has come and gone at which time it was appointed that Christ would return and take up the rule of his earthly kingdom has not deterred many who still believe this is what is in the cards, ignoring Christ's efforts to make clear that this was not really what he was about. The lesson: beware of Christians unduly emphasizing Old Testament over the New because their motivations might not be entirely "Christian". So that's what I learned today had Audiogon and I thank you all. As Forrest Gump would say "that's all I have to say about that". |
Speaking from a historical and literary context, the OP has inadvertently hit upon one of the great tensions of the old and new testament with this quote. Messiah was composed in 1741 during the reign of George II and takes this text from the King James version of the bible, published in 1611. The tension I speak of is the desire for a political messiah vs. the apolitical messiah of personal growth. For many, if we take the gospels as accurate, Jesus was not the messiah that was wanted. They wanted a messiah that centered the Israelites as a dominant political force. A new David or Moses was what was being asked, which Jesus was not about to be. I point this out because this tension, the need for divine right to rule never really goes away. Certainly not by Handel’s time. Honestly this argument, that Jesus was apolitical and our politics should be a-religious is quite modern. The separation of church and state in our founding documents was passionately argued for and against. No one was having an argument over whether Kings should be appointed by God or not, they were arguing whose version of God should be appointing kings, and hence the birth of the Church of England. AFAIK, those who supported King George II and those who opposed were often divided among religious labels. What’s the point? That a writer in these times might not have been keen on taking up the fight for the "true" Jesus/Messiah and their true place in political power anymore than we are willing to take up that fight now. Alluding that the then current political king of England as standing on the shoulders of Jesus seems quite normal for the time in which it was written. PS - I adhere to none of these religious beliefs and I only comment upon the undercurrents which might have resulted in this musical work. |
Thank you, @bruce19. I do hope that others take a chance to read this. One more outstanding presentation is the 2014 film docu-drama "Handel's Messiah" with Jane Seymour narrating. Available on YouTube at: https://youtu.be/9JuSAqLBjAM?si=GF9vsxFjISVl4wVW The performances, costumes, period settings, narration, and historical information are fascinating and excellent. Handel's complex relationship with Charles Jennens is shown as is his relationship with key musicians and singers. The confluence of multiple and seemingly disparate events that all cohered to make the first performance of The Messiah possible might well give one pause. |
Hi All, The politics of Handel’s time discussed are interesting but none really answered the OP’s question set forth. The term in the prophesy “And the government shall be upon his shoulder” to me meant that both the Romans and the Jewish leadership of that time would actively oppose him at every opportunity and eventually be responsible for his death. If you follow the Bible you’ll find that this was the ultimate goal of God. Jesus was offered up as an atonement for man’s sins. This provided a path for man’s salvation to all that believed in him. |
Whether that is true or not for the faith in the text of the libretto this does not seem to be the intended interpretation:
Most certainly words of praise and power as opposed to worldly strife with an oppressive regime, or the foreshadowing of a human sacrifice. |
Isaiah is not a book of prophecy. Written by two different authors at different times both exhorting their present day Israel to do better. Data over Dogma youtube videos do a great job outlining the current academic consensus Now if you hold the Bible to be inerrant and completely inspired that is fine for you to believe whatever. Sort of like arguing against another person's ears. As for Handel underrated and magnificent composer. |
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I could comment about the pending I'M POTUS, but won’t beyond <That.... I also could stir a pot ’bout christianity with some views on the afterlife that would likely disappoint.... Question: Do you dream during anesthesia? Me? Never....my point. Life IS the dream. ....enough time to forget All of This. *LOL* ;) Weirdy Gnu Year.... |
