Looking to move to a Tube Integrated setup

I would ask why are you thinking of changing to tubes?  

I've been using solid state for 40+ years and, from what I've listened to including a somewhat recent listen to the Ayon unit, find the of solid state diminished when compared. Plus, I'd just like to have something different. I'd be keeping my current SS unit anyway..

@bigtwin I'd assume because tubes sound better. ;)

Think long, both allow you to try various tube types, which definitely sound different, Ayon is a beauty to look at, never heard one.

I see that you can bridge the Prima Luna into Mono, so the option to double your tube power is there, much easier to try using EL34’s lower output each side, which you don't need now, but future speaker change? That option make make it easier to sell in the future.

Once you pick which unit, then ask again about members various tube experiences. I never had KT120's or 150's, I got hooked on tube sound with EL37's, then EL34's for years, now I am happily using KT88's with a Cayin A-88T which came with 6550's.

Running cool for long life makes a lot of sense.

@jond You know the old saying around assuming..... Speaking only about my own experience, I too got the bug to move to tube equipment. I wanted to enjoy the better sound. I have owned the TRX-M845 mono blocks from Triode Audio of Japan, and more recently the REX 3 mono blocks from Balanced Audio Technology. After countless hours of A-B comparing, over several months, neither myself or anyone else who joined in could discern any improvement or really any difference between the tubes and my Hegel H30 SS mono blocks. Well that is not fully accurate. We all could tell the difference in the tremendous amount of heat the tubes put off. And I could tell the difference in cost as I fell down the rabbit hole of chasing the elusive improvements changing tubes promised. Got all that out of my system and will be sticking with the Hegels. In good conscience, and given the high quality of today’s SS amps, I would not encourage anyone to change to tube amps. But hey, that comes with a huge IMHO. Cheers.

Yes, better sound was what my ears perceived. Also true regarding the primaluna bridging, though the unit I’m considering has KT120’s already, and as my main speakers are full range and 98dB at 1 watt, I don’t really think I’ll need to do dual mono, though it is a nice option.

With your speakers you need to be looking at something Single Ended(1 pair of output power tubes),Pure Class A..If you listen to strictly vocal/elevator/pipe & slippers music the 300B is the way to go..If you listen to a variety of music then KT88/KT120/KT150/KT170 would get the call...There is also Single Ended Class A EL34 but I prefer the bass & mid bass of the Pentode tubes..
There are several manufacturers making such amps like Mastersound Icona,Icon Audio ST30SE,Unison Research Preludio,Rogers Audio 65V2 & the Lab 12 Suono Mk.II...

I do listen to a wide variety of music. Classica, choral and jazz to blues, country and rock

I would look seriously at the AudioResesrch I-50. If your moving from as then this is probably the musical sound you are looking for. Very natural, outstanding rhythm and pace with great detail. Built like real audiophile equipment. I own PrimaLuna and my main system is Audio Research. The ARC is in a different class.

Those tube amps are likely overkill for 98db speakers.  What is the make and model of the speakers?

Tekton Moabs with Be HF drivers

I agree with freediver except I like DHTs.  Now that I know what speakers you have, I especially recommend an SE DHT amp.

@jijoh123 - very good choices.  Enjoy your tube journey.

@jijoh123 @ghdprentice - +1 on the Audio Research integrated amp. Over the last few years I’ve been on a mission to listen to as many amps as I can, often in my home as possible. Over that time, I’ve acquired a Conrad Johnson and an Audio Hungary tube amp. Big fan.
 

But the amp that initially got me intrigued on tube amps was the Audio Research I-50. I initially purchased it when it first came out but supply chains during COVID delayed delivery, so I changed my mind and bought another amp from the dealer instead. And I regret it! The AR I-50 was simply amazing sounding. 

Any one of these or a Pathos integrated in your price range.

@ghdprentice +1  I have listened to the ARC I-50 and if I were going to go with an integrated set up, this would be #1 on my list.  ARC is just in a league of their own IMHO.

I just traded up a Raven Audio Osprey for a Reflection.... The Osprey produced musical sound  stage that I did not think I could hear any more from in 5 years of ownership...But know Raven has that Osprey and sure you could purchase for good price...With the right tubes that Osprey was sure nice to turn on for the 5 years of ownership..The Reflection just adds to the Osprey in ways I could not even dream I could hear more coming out of the tracks of music I have listened to for years..But it comes at a price.. Wish you well in your search for musical detail you are looking for..

This Rogue is another one to consider!!

http://rogueaudio.com/Products_Cronus_Magnum.htm

I have to second the Rogue Cronus. I have been enjoying the sound that I get from it paired with my Klipsch Heresy. Just dropped in some NOS signal tubes from Vintage tube and it seemed to stabilize the highs. There is certainly a rabbit hole to go down once you decide you want to start tube rolling.

I have a Ayon triton Evo and completely love it. I only have one recommendation and that is go with KT 170 tubes. 

Had a Cronus a number of years back, even with NOS preamp tubes it just sound solid state to me; may have been the KT90s power tubes which it came with at that time .

Maybe consider looking into the lineups of Line Magnetic , Trafomatic and Finale Audio as well.  In my main system the speakers are Daedalus Argo V2s 97db 5ohm flat impedance and drive them easily with either a Line Magnetic 518IA (newer model is 845IA) - 845 power tubes 22wpc , or a Finale Audio 7189Mk2 - EL84M or 7189A power tubes 22wpc (I also at times use a Modwright tube pre and ss power amp)

With your budget you can probably go separate call Aric audio. My friend own MOAB he love his Aric gear.

You may want to consider a pre - owned Rogers High Fidelity tube integrated amp they offer direct w/ their full lifetime warranty. They offer a free home trial too. I compared their EHF 200 Mark II to the top Prima Luna & it was in a completely different class in every way & bought it. It’s big, heavy & built extremely well but most importantly sounds excellent! I have no experience w/ Ayon. 

Of the two, despite the beauty of the Ayon, I would go with the Prima Luna's. There are a lot of good points made by Kevin in that video. I've heard my friend's Prima Luna Mono Blocks on his JSE Infinite Slope Model II's which I helped him get/setup (I owned/loved mine for years), and on his current speakers which he prefers, I forget the maker, but they sound terrific, we both prefer tubes to his prior SS. 

Running them cool for long life combined with the adaptive auto-bias dream feature, makes me want one, my early Cayin has manual and dangerous internal bias adjusters. 

Spare tubes should always be on hand, you would only need a few, I gather that they will come with KT120's. As it is a major shift to Tube sound, I would encourage you to buy (now or eventually) a batch of EL34's, and compare them.

Break in new tubes: on, no input needed, just leave them on for around 60 hours is what Brent Jesse advised me to do.

With speakers at efficiency at 98dB I  would go low watt.

I run a 4 watt Decware with a 92db Ref 3A de Capos and the sound is amazing

my second system has a 2/6 watt Grommes PHI-26 with 97db Klipsch Quartets and damn does that sing. 

With your speakers you have lots of options for low watt tubes

After many years (decades, really) of being a dedicated solid state guy, a few years ago, I took the plunge and picked up a Prima Luna Evo 300 Integrated Floyd. After about a year, I got curious, and rolled the very respectable stock 12AU7 tubes to NOS 1960s (for the signal pair) and 1970s (for the 4 gains) RCAs. I've been really happy with the tube front end / SS back end, and the sound with the NOS tubes is just sublime.

I know there are other, more rarified and more modest choices out there, but for me, the Prima Luna really hits the sweet spot, and represents a solid value for the money. Happy hunting!

McIntosh MA352

The Moab is not an easy load (per the Stereophile review) though is was measured as 93dB @ 2.83V.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/tekton-moab-be-loudspeaker

DeKay

@ghdprentice   Regarding AR in general, and the I50 specfically it seems like a downside is that you supposedly can't bias these amps yourself and are required to have a tech do the work. That may be fine if you have one in your locale but not optimal if you have to ship the amp every 2000 hours of tube replacement (I50). What has been your experience with this?

If you are more use to to the dynamics of your SS or Class D amps driving your 98db efficiency speakers, it could be quite an initial change to your ears dropping to one of the 2-4w single ended amps suggested here.  It's not that you won't like it, for awareness, it is going to sound different, likely more billowy and plush and less punchy and dynamic comparatively to the amps you've tried so far.    

imo, the key here is trying a few different amps with your speakers. The recommendation to demo a few amps a with return policy might be worthwhile so you dont get stuck with something you don't like, and/or allowing the amp merry-go-round to continue through two or three more tube amps to get closer to what you are looking for.  

There are some tube amps that sound very close to solid state amps, clear, dynamic, yet lacking tubey characteristics you might be after - so its worth figuring out how to try a few different integrated tube amps or a separate tube preamp and separate tube amplifiers to match with your speakers. Or, maybe end up with a handful of different low watt single ended and higher power push pull amps in your stable for a while to try and narrow down different results and sounds you like more. I find taste varies from one person to the next about what sounds good to them.     

What impedance are your 98db speakers (4,6,8,16 ohm) etc?

For crying out LOUD...

Look @ the Stereophile review I linked and then come up with informed responses in regard to pairing the OP's speakers with a tube amplifier.

DeKay

Agreed.  I enjoy both tubed and solid state systems, so no personal bias in that regard.

After looking at those measurements, I can't imagine a tube amp being happy driving this speakers incredibly low impedance.

Nothing wrong with wanting to try tubes--just pair it up with the right speaker.  The Moab Be is not that speaker IMO.  

Impedance is 4 ohms

No way a dinky SET will drive those speakers. @atma-sphere has told me more than once that high sensitivity, full range passive speakers need some grunt even if the specs suggest otherwise. This same idea has been reinforced many times in reviews and on these forums. I'd want at least 50 watt/side of tube power. I do confess to occasional loud listening.

AGAIN, read the review/measurements.  It is NOT a 4 ohm speaker.  At some frequencies it is just clearing 1 ohm!  

Amps need to control speakers, not the other way around.  If you pair a tubed amp with this speaker, the Moab will be exerting its will on the amp with very unpredictable results.  Nonlinear frequency response will be just one of those problems.

Corelli, To be clear, I do not own the full Be array Moab Matrix LX reviewed by Stereophile. I own a pair of the original Moabs with a single HF Be driver. Totally different unit, sound and measurements. Please pay attention to the original description.

@dekay I stopped in reply, restarted, and missed your prior post, only saw the MA352 post above yours. Good to know - for crying out loud. We read ya, LOL :)

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@jijoh123 Long story, have a 50yr audiophile buddy who’s been through at least 8 different Decware, Cary, Inspire by Dennis Had SET 45 and 300B 2-8w amps, also owns Cary SLI-80 40wpc, and custom EL84 amps at 20w. Geeze, 5 others prior to this. He’s back to looking for a higher current SS integrated amp to better drive and control the drivers in his 96db 8ohm tube friendly speakers better. He listens at mid to lower listening levels. If it were me, I’d be excluding the 2-8w fleawatt tube SET amps for those speakers and 4ohm impedance. Been down this path myself, and the higher quality amps with real iron in them, both SS and Tube, made the most difference for me.

Are you into the more modern uber detail sound some like these days, or the softer and more plush laid back type of sound others crave? Live demos with your speakers is the best way if possible. Best of luck.

In fact I did but your description was a bit ambiguous. But that is not the point.

Much of the low impedance occurred with the bass drivers well below the crossover frequency. I suspect the bass drivers are very similar if not the same drivers.

In all likelihood  the measurements would in fact look similar when it comes to impedance and almost certainly it will dip below the nominal 4 ohm rating.

Didn’t mean to debate the point with you and just wanted to pass on some important considerations as you look for a new amp.

Thanks for the feedback Corelli. I appreciate your candor and passion. I mean not to offend, but at the end of the day, measurements and technical data aside, it really comes down to what it evokes in my heart and in my soul. Music for me is an emotional experience and not a clinical lab analysis. Music, both live and reproduced, speaks to my heart and my innermost feelings.

I don't disagree with that.  Measurements might help to predict certain aspects of music reproduction, but in the end the true test is your ears and the enjoyment you derive from your system.  Good luck on achieving your goals.

As an alternative integrated tube amplifier, consider one of the Audiomats.  They start with Aloha, Arpege, Aria, Adagio, Opera, Solfège.  Here’s a link to their webpage

http://www.audiomat.fr/Amplificateurs~T-1-0-1

The North American rep is located in Canada, Pasqual Ravach.

i have lived with two of their integrated amplifiers, the Arpege and the Prelude Reference MKII for almost 25 years and they are wonderful products, really solid, utterly reliable and musically outstanding.   I think they are priced below their real value.  Check out any of their reviews and you will find them very positive.  They are sadly not well known in the US.

if your speakers are that efficient the amp that will beat everything else is the Audio Note UK OTO SE. You can get a phono version as well (the phonostage is MAGIC). 3k used should get you a nice example with good tubes. 7K is approx the retail price. Cheers!

@jijoh123 I recalled this same recurring question about "which amplifier" to use with versions of the Tekton Moab in 2020. Impedance was the overarching concern. Link is below for your reference. 

The Moab owner determined his Moab speakers were truly running down in the 3 ohm range. This will take a capable amplifier to drive those drivers properly in order to evoke desired result. Most tube amps like 8+ohms loads. If you have the same version of the Moabs, maybe find an amp that can do 2ohms without breaking a sweat fwiw. Confirming your speaker impedance load matters here. Best of Luck.

https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1912637

jenglemann "Having dealt with some tube amp anomalies after installing the Tekton MOABS, I decided to measure the actual resistance and found mine to measure 3.1 ohms.
When I moved the speakers to the 2 ohm output terminal on the amplifier, it resolved the issue.
The amplifier manufacturer suggests not tapping for loads less than the output tap rating. Again, this is a tube amp. Might measure your MOABs to see what the actual load is on the amplifier. Also keeping in mind that the resistance can drop when being driven hard. This could be a factor in choosing a new amp.".

I would add the Cary SLI80HS. It's been around a long time, built like a tank, excellent customer support.. It has all the sweetness, finesse and grunt you could want. 80/40 WPC either in Triode or UL.  Easily found here or on USAM starting in the mid 2k, or buy direct from Cary, discounts often. I bought mine direct from Cary with most of the upgrades, only one i didn't choose was the binding post upgrade, which I regret not adding...

Mine is paired with similarly sensitive speaker, Volti Razz. It's a wonderful match. Gives me everything I want and desire.  

Was thinking about the SL80 unit. Looks similar to the Chronos Magnum, but different I assume. 

OK, sorry.

Assumed "Tekton Moabs with Be HF drivers" were the ones measured by SP.

DeKay

No worries. There are a few of variations or optios,. I have a pair with a single HF driver only on each channel.

Hi @jijoh123 yes they are a bit different. I owned a Rogue Atlas 3 paired with a Rogue RP1 pre amp. Pretty powerful combo, muscular for sure, I could have easily stuck with the set up. There was an audible hiss and hum though, I couldn’t ignore it. When I swapped in an NAD pre amp, quiet. Their tech support was great, gave me several ideas, ultimately the noise floor of the preamp was a bit to high and the noise was present with their preamp. 
I sold and bought the Cary. Little less power but my Volti Razz speakers are pretty sensitive, 96 to 99 db depending on who you listen to. So the decrease in power didn’t mean much. For me the ability to switch back and forth between UL and Triode mode is cool, depending on my mood. Also the rectifier section on the newer SLI80 makes it less of a syrupy overall sound, what I remember about Cary back in the day.

Honestly I don’t think you could go wrong choosing either.