Have you tried rolling in some other tubes?
A good amp with great tubes can best a great amp with average tubes.
Warm, yet detailed tube preamp
Looking for a warm but yet detailed preamp to upgrade my Rouge RP1 (with NOS tubes). Rest of system is Coincident Frankenstein 300B Mk2, Zu Audio Omen Def Supreme, digital front end with PS Audio AirStream and DirectStream Sr (modified with external power supply for the analog side and different output transformers). The Rouge is a very good preamp (especially for the money), but it does definitely hold the system back at this point. I would like to add a bit more warmth of the overall sound and also add depth to the soundstage (without losing details). And I do want a remote... if nothing else, volume and mute.
Willing to spend about $5k used (or so).
77 responses Add your response
I've always like Rogue (not Rouge). I'd look at an Aric preamp built around the 6SN7 tube. Take a look at what comes up, here. Of note: Don Sachs Cary Modwright |
+1 LTA microZOTL Level 2 preamp. I don’t think mine is “warm.” But, it sure is smooth and very detail. The LTA sounds noticeably better than the PS Audio BHK Reference pre amp it replaced (and I was very happy with the BHK, until I auditioned the LTA in my system 😉.) The LTA uses 2 premium hand selected 12AT7 input tubes, and two premium hand selected 12SN7 output tubes. (6SN7s can be used with jumper settings.) |
Yes, +1 on the LTA preamp. It is not warm like an old school CJ preamp (I owned a few), but is natural sounding, dynamic, and detailed, it is open and airy with breadth and depth with the right source components, Tube life is excellent. It takes a classic design from David Berning and truly elevates it. Really worth listening to. |
The Cary SLP98 is a very warm and smooth sounding unit, even moreso than the SLP05. Audio Research and LTA are not particularly warm. I suspect that you Zu speaker is the reason for wanting a warmer sound. While I appreciate the liveliness of those speakers, the have a very hard edge to their sound that I don’t think can be easily tamed with other component choices; it is too extreme in sound for that—you live that sound or find something else. |
I go to plenty audio get togethers and for quality and build in the $5-6k range Linear Tube Audio made in U.S.A designed by Tube guru David Berning then later upgraded still if you use xlr the Swedish Lundahl Transformer upgrade and order with the 6 sn7 tubes , then there is a small set of tubes 12at7 or others very good all around and not like many that use the cheap $20 silver can alps pot like prima luna , these guys you a true resistive ladder for the volume. Which is ultra important for detail. Mike at Audio Archon gives excellent service and a fair price off on retail. |
I don't like the term "warm". I think it is a euphemism for bland and muddy. It is generally an attempt to fix a too bright system. and often the too brightness is really a lack of bass. People don't understand this but it makes sense if you think about it. For example, you have a crappy power conditioner that limits current to your amp that mostly affect bass. So to get the normal bass and volume, you have to turn it up. now the highs are screaming at you. So instead of buying a "warm" preap, I'd try to find out what is causing problems in my system. Jerry |
The not to expensive (for some) LTA MICROZOTL MZ3 PREAMPLFIER that punches far beyond it’s $3700 price tag. And when I rolled in NOS tubes it responded that much better. I got mine used from LTA which came with a $400 discount on a one month old unit from a trade up and haven’t looked back. Fantastic piece of kit. |
I’ll add a +1 to look at Don sachs. I have his model 2 and it’s outstanding. I prefer a more neutral sound and so I am running this with the provided rectifier tube; however experimenting with Mullard GZ34 gave exactly the warmer detailed sound you are asking about. But given your price point you are right at the Raven cost point which is noted to be even more special. |
I have Zu Omen Defs also, along with an RP1 (RCA Cleartops).I feel the Rogue with those particular tubes has just the right touch of warmth. It replaced an LTA MZ2 which was not warm at all no matter what tubes were tried,but was very transparent and clear.I enjoyed it more as a 1watt power amplifier.The only fault I find with the RP1 is the volume control - not enough steps to fine tune it just right.I owned a Conrad Johnson PL10 in the past that I wish I'd hung on to sometimes. If I upgrade someday I would have CJ on my short list. |
You didn't mention budget but you could upgrade to a Rogue RP5 v2 for less than half the $$ of these other options. I spoke to Rogue regarding an upgrade path from my integrated Cronus Magnus III. They said that the RP1 would be an upgrade. I was asking about the RP7 at which point they said that the RP5v2 is maybe better since newer development. |
I replaced my Luxman C900 with an Aric Audio tube preamp for more warmth in my system. @aricaudio will listen to you desired sound qualities and provide guidance as well. This was one of the few upgrades that actually made me money as it replace a preamp, that cost more than double.
Good luck! |
I think you need to define what "warm" means to you. If you are referring to a bottom-up presentation, you have been given some good choices and might even give MacIntosh a listen. From your description it looks like you are looking for the ideal preamp. It's almost like asking for a car with a tight suspension that is responsive and corners well, yet is quiet and comfortable. Good luck on your search! |
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Several good suggestions and some not so good. The LTA may be a great preamp for some but is clearly not what the OP is seeking. I would agree that if the OP is at all troubled by too much edge or brightness this is probably a function of his speakers and will probably not be mitigated by a new preamp. You need to fully love your speakers from the get go. Component matching beyond should be subtle tuning of the system to taste. Lastly, I have heard several speakers with more than enough bass that had an intolerable edge. I do not agree that brightness is a function of poor bass response. |
Audio-gd Vacuum HE1 XLR Tube Preamplifier Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com......I own this preamp........$4,500.....Best 10 tube preamp under 10K....Simply make SS amps come Alive with the essence of real, live music.....Nothing even close...Just not a household name. |
@corelli, I should have mentioned in my previous post that I have (2) subwoofers in my LTA MICROZOTL MZ3 PREAMPLFIER as it has left and right preouts and I can custom tailor the bass. But I have to agree with you, an LTA preamp sounds nothing like a warm sounding Luxman for example. I appreciate your clarity. |
Ok, so I guess I need to add some details. Warmth to me is more "meat on the bones" in the midrange. It’s not the low-end. The Rogue (and I apologize for the initial misspelling) is a great preamp, especially for the price, but it’s a bit lean in the midrange (and yes, I have tried different NOS tubes and although better, not all the way to where I want it to be). The other area where it falls a bit short is soundstage depth. The width is ok, but it’s lacking depths. This is not the speakers or the room. With the Gryphon Diablo 300 (way overkill with the ZU’s) I had that, so it’s definitely possible.
As to the nonsense about power condition limiting the current etc. 8W 300B monoblocks doesn’t draw that much current to start with and if the power conditioner (PS Audio PP12) doesn’t limit the Gryphon, I really don’t think it’ll limit the Coindicent Frankensteins...
The Zu Omen Def Supreme can indeed sound harsh unless you set them up correct. It does take lots of tweaking to get them just right. And I’ve done that. With other amps, I can get them to sound almost sweet, just not as seductive as with the SET amps. Trying other preamps, I can change the sound, but again, I haven’t found "THE ONE" yet (hence the post here). |
LTA has the most neutral sound of any tube based products I have heard. I like it but warm it isnt. A Rogue Audio RP 5 is definitely warm and polished, a Rogue Audio RP 7 was actually too warm in my system. Cary Audio SLP 98 is the ticket between warm, dynamic and detailed and responds well to tube upgrades, e.g. Sylvania GTA. |
@audiojan good luck with that.
The first amp I ever saw current limit effects was a 14 lb EL84 shoebox amp. You totally missed my point on the bass balance. Not gonna try again. You sound like you've got it figured out.
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"I've never heard the Cary SLP98, but I, personally, do not consider my SLP05 to be warm." I have a Cary SLP98 and it is warm, but also rather thick and sluggish, and was replaced by my own version of a Don Sachs-style Aikido 6SN7 preamp, which is much faster and more transparent but still rich and warm. Unfortunately Don has stopped making his Aikido preamps, and the Tubes4HiFi SP14 it was based on is good but really a DIY project and not as refined as Don's version. For the OP, I would look at a 6SN7-based preamp for the combination of heft, detail and complete lack of distortion that that tube exhibits. The LTA MicroZOTL, Icon's Pure Valve, even the Black Ice Fusion. |
I can make my Cary SLP-98 preamp sound like four different tube preamps by simply changing the 6SN7 tubes and capacitors. And, it responds to different interconnect cables when the rest of the system is reasonably transparent. TUBES: The original stock EH Electro Harmonix 6SN7 tubes always seemed a tad lean. For more detail, neutral midrange, vintage 6SN7 Sylvania GT work okay New manufacturer TungSol 6SN7GTB, more weighty, less detail, tad more grainy. Not as refined as my vintage or others below. For more midrange weight and body, velvety, PSVANE CV181s do the trick. In between, my mothballed sets of TS Full Music 6SN7s are very nice. ICs: Having tried several different pairs of interconnects with my SLP-98 - Apature silver-over-copper, Analysis Plus OCC copper, various Cardas Grade 1 copper, and others... each provided different results as well. Caps: Choose your flavor, a whole other chapter on different sounds with this preamp.
In summary, when someone indicates lean or full or weighty sound from any 6SN7 preamp I’ve tried, there are other factors involved to yield different results too fwiw.
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The SLP-98 is a nice preamp, but somewhat hampered, IMO, by the simple parallel 6SN7 configuration and the stock output capacitors. I tried many tube and cable combinations with mine and achieved decent results, but by comparison the Aikido 6SN7 is much "faster" and more transparent, offering more information and liquidity while maintaining the linearity and naturalness of the 6SN7. Part of that is due to the noise-cancelling properties of the Aikido, as well as the SRPP-like configuration. If you like the Cary but haven't heard an Aikido-style preamp I think you'd be surprised at the comparison. It's too bad Don Sachs doesn't make his anymore. An assembled and upgraded SP14 is a close contender, though. |
@dogearedaudio If you haven’t already, check out the Raven pre that Don has co-designed for Spatial Audio — it goes way beyond what he’s done with his prior preamps albeit at a somewhat dearer price point. There’s another thread here that has a lot more info on the specifics of the design. |
Yes, that looks like a very nice design, and not as expensive as I thought. Wonder what the harmonic cancellation sounds like (assuming it’s a push-pull topology). I still think the Aikido is one of the "great ideas" of audio and considering how cheaply it can be built, and how easily it can be upgraded to give stellar performance, it’s also a great bargain. ;-) |
An assembled SP14 with remote is a terrific value for under $2K, IMO. The SP14 board is the same one Don Sachs used for years and it's very well designed, with regulated filament and high-voltage supplies. I've also found that the specific operating points chosen for the tubes makes for a particularly good-sounding Aikido. |
In my LTA Microzotl MZ3 I have (2) 6SN7 Sylvania GT and or 6SN7 Sylvania W with both tubes being ’metal base’ are quite special with the Micrzotl circuit. And in the 12AT7 position I have (2) Telefunken ECC801S /12AT7WA’s. and the synergy is again, fantastic. My interconnects are 聖Hijiri HCI-R10 and the synergy is outstanding with this preamp and tubes. The LTA Microzotl MZ3 with these additions provide open, detailed, airy, holographic, quiet background and a wide sound stage with an uncanny overall balance in the sound it puts out. The ’openness’ I hear with this combination is what I’d define as exactly what @audiojan described above as ’meat on the bones’ midrange. Now there’s one more thing I have to mention. I snagged @grannyring’s old Clayton Audio modified S-40 amplifier that came up for sale some months ago and it was a perfect synergistic match with my gear. I couldn’t be more happier with the results. So @grannyring, if you read this, Thank you very much for what you do and share here on audiogon. |