12au7 tube?

check out my user profile in my system pictures i have a handy chart for small NOS 12XXX tube types with sound characteristics. its relivent for all of the 12xxx series tubes. 

Good news: since they’re going in an amp, not a preamp or phono, you have more options for 12au7 tubes & subs that would be too noisy / microphonic in those slots.

I’ve recently been using RCA 5963 (close 12au7 sub) in an amp - they’re affordable (beasue 5963 was not intended as an audio tube) and have a nice balanced sound. There are gray and black plate variants. They’re too microphonic for preamp / phono, but fine in an amp.

I’ve also liked GE 5814 (triple mica, gray plates), as a warm 12au7 sub that’s not quite as "wooly" as Mullard. Also affordable. 5814 is a very close 12au7 sub.

If your component’s PSU has a little extra heater current to spare, you can sub in 12BH7 (very close sub except for 0.6A heater current draw instead of 0.3A per tube). These tubes tend to be more dynamic sounding than 12au7. A power amp is more likely to have the heater current to spare, since the power tubes take up much more of it than small tubes. I’ve subbed them in a few different amps.

6189 is another sub you can do (12au7 equivalent). The Sylvanias and Philips ECG of this tube tend to be more "solid state" like in their sound. Cifte / Mazda / France made some silver plate 6189 that are very good, definitely not on the warm side though. Siemens also made some silver (nickel) plate 12au7 some people like - man, mine are microphonic as hell though - should be OK in an amp.

RCA cleartop 12au7 are everywhere (often rebranded - millions were made) and some people like them. They used to be pretty cheap. I find them "fine" but nothing really exciting.

I haven't tried Brimar or Amperex of 12au7 types - but based on their 12ax7, they should be slotting between Tele and Mullard sound, like you are looking for!

I suggest going to a professional- Andy at Vintage Tube Service. Andy knows his products and has a terrific reputation for recommendations and delivery of NOS tubes. Very easy to talk with as well and will absolutely keep your budget in mind. Give him a call.

@mulveling I don't know about that assessment as the 12AU7 is used in the pre section of the integrated amp... you definitely need to it t be quite or you will amplify it

@mulveling I don’t know about that assessment as the 12AU7 is used in the pre section of the integrated amp... you definitely need to it t be quite or you will amplify it

Oops, missed that part of your amp; assumed it was power only. I did not consider they might create 845 based amps in a "space saving" integrated form factor lol. Yep you need quiet 12au7 tubes. Stick to 12au7, 6189, cv4003, and (maybe) 5814 types then.

Andy at VTS (recommended below) can very carefully select for noise, but I’m not sure how his stock levels are these days, other than RCAs. Upscale Audio used to have some great vintage options (Platinum or Gold grades); most of them long gone now. Other than that you can play the buy-and-try game on ebay, or try some of the new production tubes.

I’ve used Arizona Tube Supply in the past for some of these tube types, and I like him. They are generally used but good quality tubes.

Gold Lyons are everything I want out of a tube, could not sound better.

Amperex AU7 NOS "Bugle Boy" if you can find them with enough life left in them.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=amperex+NOS++AU7+Bugle+Boy&_sacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_odkw=amperex+NOS+Bugle+Boy&_osacat=0

@bolong +1

Tried 22 different pairs of vintage 12au7s, and 6 pairs of new re-issues.

Vintage best for me, 1965 Blackburn Plant Mullards if you like vintage. Stored now.

New, PSVANEs are lasting longer than any of my former Gold Lyons.

Get them curve tracer matched triodes w/guarantee, with guarantee.  

I used Genalex Gold Lion in my previous preamp, so maybe those will tested. And the PSVANE are not overly expensive either, so I might as well toss them into the mix

Greatly appreciate all the advice and knowledge!!!

the TF ecc802s is probably not the holy grail, but its expensive. if you want to spend money theres a blackglass TF 12AU7 variant. theres also the 7316 by philips holland, of which there are several versions. lng plate d-foil getter is the top tier. somme people swear by the siemens nickel plate ecc82, and theres the siemens 5814 triple mica as well. 

Look @ the Amperex Holland offerings ($119 a matched pair).

Found most of the Holy Grail 12au7’s touted to be thin/bright sounding in my gear.

http://www.audiotubes.com/12au7.htm

DeKay

+3 on Amperex. Sound wise it sits beautifully between Telefunken and Mullard.

Look for the 7316, the older the better.

The RCA clear tops are good.  If you can run a 12BH7a, that's my strong preference.

belong +2

Sorry, @bolong +2

Brent Jesse has medical grade red or green tTelefunken that are very closed ,$450-$550 a pr I bought a pair great ,defined lots of air and neutral No mullard is close in detail ,warmer yes.

I've heard good things about the Apos Ray tubes. They're not cheap, but they're less expensive than a lot of the NOS options.

You may try CryoTone tubes. In my experience with them, they are simply quite. Also, they offer a trial period. If you don't like them, send them back. 

I love the Brimar CV4003 from Upscale. $300. I own Tele red medicals from Brent, Siemens nickel plates & currently prefer the Brimars. To be honest, I haven’t tried my Tele’s yet in my new BHK pre. They were my least favorite in my old Rogue. YMMV.

Well why not try the Telefunken 12AU7? CBS 5814 are good as are the Amperex. Really depends upon which direction you want to take the sound. I always found the RCA clear tops primitive and bright sounding. 

I’ve run 12AX7 and 12AT7 as signal tube in my integrated.  No experience with lower gain 12AU7, however I have found consistent sound signature across mfg with AX7 and AT7.  Mullard = warm, smooth with less detail, Telefunken = master of transparent balanced detail, Amperex BB = clear, clean sparkling treble extension. My favorite that combines all three are Raytheon black plates from 50’s = warm, strong bass and midrange with great treble and detail up and down frequency range. Doesn’t have full extension and sparkle of BB, but has warmth of Mullard, but not too warm, detail and transparency of Telefunken but not at expense of bass, and superb treble extension but doesn’t leave out beautiful midrange. Goldilocks of signal tube in my system.

I suggest thoroughly combing through Brent Jessee's descriptions of 12AU7 tubes or any other tubes for that matter. Depending on your tastes and preferences, you may or may not like the sound profile of the German brands. Telefunkens and the other German tubes are more stark and less warm than the Dutch, Belgan, French and British sound.

Re: current production Gold Lion and Tung Sol tubes, I find that the Gold Lions are tilted toward the upper mid range and highs and that the Tung Sol tubes are tilted the other way, more toward the mid bass and bass.

Unfortunately, current production tubes just can't match the abilities of NOS tubes and there are NOS tubes available that can be had for the same cost or even less than the better current production tubes.

I also suggest to sticking to the better tube suppliers such as Brent Jessee instead of buying on the "open market". My results on "open market" buys have been a mixed bag that were mostly disappointing.

And all things being equal, pick up a current production Gold Lion 12AU7, an excellent reference tube to judge all others, NOS and current production, based on my experience with the 12AX7.

Thanks everyone. I have a bunch of tubes incoming. Radiotechnique, Genalex Gold Lion, Brimar, Amperex.

i don't know how good they are, but, a local dealer helped to sell off a very valuable collection of tubes.  Included in the collection were something like eight original Genelex  B749 tubes (12AU7 variant).  These sold for north of $1,000 each.  

@audiojan Thanks everyone. I have a bunch of tubes incoming. Radiotechnique, Genalex Gold Lion, Brimar, Amperex.

That's the way to do it.  Do some nice pair comparisons, select a few vintage you like, and a few new/re-issue tubes to play when you like. Then store off the keepers and sell off the stuff that's just okay or does not gel well with your system so much. 

Try Mazda too.  Fit very nicely between the Tele’s and Mullards, just like you’re looking for.  

@marco1 The Radiotechnique's are likely made by Mazda...

@audiojan could be, but  probably more likely Amperex. They probably do sound similar though.

+1 @audition__audio  about the clear tops. Annoyingly bright.

You want to go with what the cognoscenti declare to be the best of the best?

Telefunken G73-R. Love to try out a pair of those. 

For preamp, I’ve had had good luck with NOS Mazda gray plates.

For power amp the Brimar flying leads in conjunction with Ampererex 7316 for the 12ax7

Brent Jessee sent me those.  

My preamp uses 12au7’s and I’ve tried PSVANE and will never buy them again and would suggest than nobody should buy from them!  I tried several others and settled on NOS RCA cleartops.  They give me great highs, wonderful midrange without being too forward and really clean bass. In second place was the were the Gold Lions.

All the best.

Call Andy at Vintage Tube Services. Doesn’t matter what tube you decide on if you can’t trust that it is working as it’s supposed to. If you buy from Andy, it will be as it should. 

@curiousjim My preamp uses 12au7’s and I’ve tried PSVANE and will never buy them again and would suggest than nobody should buy from them!

Share more. While I have more vintage pairs of 12au7s than I care to recall - including RCAs, GE, Tungsram, the best of Blackburn Mullards, and more ---- and just sent back failed Gold Lyons, I’m currently running PSVANE 12au7, 12at7, factory direct for a year and no problems so far. My local dealer runs all OEM PSVANE made and rebranded for AudioNote, no major reports of failures.

Always curious where folks source their tubes from and how they get packed and shipped. The poorly packed and shipped tubes sure do seem to suffer past few years, fwiw. Always taking photos when I unbox to show packing, boxing, effort.

I am pretty certain that the French tubes, La Radiotechnique (RT) were actually made by this factory which was owned by Philips Europe. Has a unique acid etched code. 

Brent Jessee has the Phillips factory codes and how to read them on his site here:

Mullard, Philips, and Valvo Tube Codes

Phillips owned many of the popular NOS tube manufacturers. Brent says one thing I disagree with, though. That is that you only need to look at the etched codes when the labeling is not readable. Phillips labeled tubes made in one factory with the brand of another factory all the time. You have to look at the etched codes to know where a tube came from and when it was made. They can be hard or impossible to read, though.

@signaforce + 1 on the 60s Brimar, cv4003. Use them in my DAC & much preferred over many of the other usual suspects. I believe the 50s Brimars are even better but good luck finding a pair south of $500.

@audiojan Nice selection of tubes. Enjoy!

@decooney 

I bought a preamp that came with a bunch of extra tubes.  One of the selling points was six brand new PSVANE 12au7 tubes that were still in perfect boxes with Viva stickers on them.  I put in the first two and within 72 hours one of the tubes started making crackling static noises. I put in another set and the same thing happened after about a week.  I put the set in and in about 12 hours it started again. Over the coming weeks I played with different combinations using a Telefunken that I knew was good and when all was said and done, I had only one PSVANE tubes that worked! That’s when A, I  started buying matched set of New Mullard, Gold Lion, Tungsol and NOS RCA and Amperex tubes. All worked great and I waited two weeks with each before trying the next set.  I settled on the RCA Cleartops and they’ve been in a few months now. And B, I sent emails to PSV and Viva. Viva said because I didn’t buy them I was out of luck.  And PSV kinda blew me off as well.  A couple of weeks later I read an article saying that PSVANE had put out a batch of 12au7 Art series tubes that were bad. Again I sent emails mentioning the article to PSV and Viva and still they won’t budge!  So that’s why I will never buy PSVANE tubes again and I will never buy from Viva again.

Oh and I misspoke on my original post.

It was the Tungsols that came in second place, not the Gold Lions.

@curiousjim ...A couple of weeks later I read an article saying that PSVANE had put out a batch of 12au7 Art series tubes that were bad. Again I sent emails mentioning the article to PSV and Viva and still they won’t budge! So that’s why I will never buy PSVANE tubes again and I will never buy from Viva again.

Transparently - something very similar happened for me. Had everything to do with the tubes being lightly packed, loose boxes, no foam or peanuts inside. Same seller, and they were Gold Lyon, not PSVANE. Got a refund, thankfully. Crackling and snapping and popping in the first 1hr, and tried again like you - several times. Had been down this same path with other tubes, but something in common I found.

There is a whole other thread about this, and I’m challenging the distributors and reailers who unbox from Asia, and then test, and not put foam or peanuts and all that back in - leaving the tubes LOOSE inside, rattling and bouncing during shipping. Even the leaders at PSVANE are aware of poor re-packing/shipping issues. And they seemed to have fessed up a bout some batches that went bad  a while back, told me "poor QA". This next - Not sure what your case is - but I’’ll mention this if you need it. This can helps if you suspect poor repacking to you. 

You have another option. I just got a pair replaced, direct from the factory. They are going to ask you to share intel and photos and will want you to physically break the tubes to replace them - send them photos back of it all - in order to get replacements. Contact PSVANE direct. Try it, they were good responding to me. Took 17 days to get replacements. I’m using my 6SN7 replacements now, no issues, were packed really well too - fingers crossed for you., https://psvane.co/pages/contact-1

I use NOS 12SN7 with adapters in place of 12AU7's in my Backert Labs preamp. They are superior to the 12SN7"s.

I like reliability in tubes. I’ve never been let down by Gold Lions, and their performance is very good. And you can get them for a song on USAudioMart. 

It's quite concerning hearing about the quality issues at Psvane. Grant Fidelity (premiumvaccumtubes.com) dropped them due to quality concerns/issues and are selling Linlai only.

This makes it really difficult to find good 845 tubes for a future tube upgrade... As far as I know, of new tubes, there's only Psvane, Linlai and KR making them (and KR doesn't follow the standard, so they're out).

@curiousjim , 

Have you ever bought problematic tubes from Viva and not been taken care of by them?

I’m asking because they always take care of their customers, at least in my experience.

@hasmarto 

I have six PSVANE/Art 12au7 tubes and five of them are bad. Both Viva the vender and PSVANE blew me off. 
 

I will NEVER give either one of them my business.

@curiousjim ,

Gotcha, I was under the impression that you didn’t get the tubes from them.

I settled on Radiotechnique in my Backert preamp. I thought they were made by Mazda but perhaps I'm wrong.  They just edge out the Cifte's that I also have and which I'm pretty sure were made by Mazda.

Amperex is great too: a tad warmer, whereas Radiotechnique gives you a little more "air".

I didn't get on well with Brimars because of reliability problems but perhaps that was just bad luck.

I tried a pair of Psvane ART series a while ago and thought them the best of new production that I tried (Mullard and Gold Lion), but prefer NOS.  No problems with the Psvane but two tubes in a preamp for not too long is hardly a representative sample.

Question: has anyone tried the Apos Ray 12AU7, which seems to be the new kid on the block making a few waves.