Should Amps be plugged into a power conditioner?

If it's a good conditioner then why not? Mine is...and it sounds great.

@bigboypete 

Congratulations.
 

remember when I did exactly as you. Same result.

Then I put in a direct line and an even bigger improvement. 

This was a really illuminating discussion.  I have always had a McIntosh power amp (currently a MC 312) plugged into a Furman Elite 15 power conditioner and never thought much about it.  After reading this discussion, I tried plugging the amp into the wall and it does indeed seem much happier -- and as a result, so am I. Thank you everyone who participated in this discussion.  (Now, I just have to keep an eye out for errant thunderstorms like we had in the Northeast last week).

Even though I did not find reduced dynamics with my Everest, I just put together a battery inverter system, and the dynamics, energetics and bass control are on a much different level than when the Everest was plugged into the wall. I still plug everything into the Everest, but the Everest is now plugged into the inverter. A major improvement to my system.. everything about the sound presentation has been improved and I didn’t know that it needed improving.

I wouldn't put a conditioner in front of my amps.

Though I do have dedicated lines, as well as a whole house surge protector at the box, and I own my house, so YMMV.

Bob

Hey @geof3 - I’ve researched and written on the subject of whole-house vs. point of use surge protectors.

TL;DR - Keep your point of use protectors even after getting a whole house unit, the main reason is the high (~ 600V) let-through voltages most whole house units have. Whole house makers and the NEC do not recommend substituting the whole house units for surge protectors for sensitive electronics, but in fact recommend you use both.

Whole house units are recommended in large part to protect things that can’t be protected otherwise like fire alarms, house automation, GFCI outlets, and major appliances but also the internal house wiring.

Living in South Carolina I have lost 1 laptop I left charging overnight without a surge strip. 

It depends… it depends on the “conditioner” it depends on real world needs. I live in Colorado where lightning is very real, even in winter at times… (thunder snow) all of my gear is plugged into some sort of protected system. The big stuff a Shinyata Hydra AV and the rest into a Furman unit. Unlike @erik_squires  I don’t particularly enjoy cooked electronics! ;-)

I’ve done direct wall to power box comparisons and find zero SQ difference between the two. In a perfect world I create a dedicated circuit with whole house protection. That is on the list of things to do this summer. Even then though, I’d probably still use the Shunyata just to have the backup.

I use a PS Audio P-12 PowerPlant on a dedicated circuit for my Pass Labs 150.8. There is a noticeable improvement in soundstage depth when in use. I tried a number of “conditioners” and all had a detrimental effect as compared to the PowerPlant and direct connection to the wall. 

The main reason I don't think amps should ever be plugged into a power conditioner is that I enjoy having them repaired after lightning strikes.

@erik_squires  , are you making a case for surge protection or for power conditioners?

The main reason I don't think amps should ever be plugged into a power conditioner is that I enjoy having them repaired after lightning strikes.

Packing up my 60 to 150 lb. beast, putting in the car, paying for shipping, waiting on the techs to diagnose and get me a repair estimate is something I really look forward to.

I especially look forward to getting a temporary amp, hauling it into my rack or it's place on the floor and then removing it and replacing it with the repaired unit.

Putting the repaired unit back into my rack makes me feel like I just got a brand new amplifier, and yet I only paid half that in repair and shipping bills!!

A total win in terms of money and effort for me.

Of course you can and should use a power conditioner but it does depend on which one. I can recommend the Audience power conditioners or at a less expensive price the Puritan PSM156. Which does DC removal as well.

With a correctly designed power conditioner like a transformer based unit, which actually takes you off the grid, you are much better off plugging your amplifiers into the power conditioner.. This type of power conditioner does not limit dynamics at all, as long as you get the proper size transformer for your system. As a dealer, we have tried many power conditioners, but the ones that we sell are very effective.

That being said, if you live in the middle of nowhere, and have no electrical noise on your line, you can get very nice sound by plugging your amplifiers directly into the wall.

Interesting. My 1974 Accuphase M-60 monoblocs specifically state "pug directly into a wall outlet". The Accuphase hardware has built in surge protection and power conditioning. Power surges, which have occurred here, and are likely more often with the Shakey California power grid, I would hope most if not all new high-end hardware has built in surge protection.

The issue I do have is RT speaker hum from my 1968 Sansui 3000A. This unit has been rebuilt and initially did not have any hum, but at first it was not into a battery backup surge protector as it is now. I have not read in the Sansui manual where the Sansui is similarly protected as is the Accuphase hardware. Later today the Sansui goes directly into a wall outlet, the other stuff will remain attached to the battery backup, will see what happens... or is it a bad resistor?

Just curious regarding 'headroom' (and potentially limiting it using a power conditioner): can someone link to articles where they measured the actual draw of (high power) amps? I would assume the outpout power demand peaks are very short and should be 'covered' by large capacitors, with the resulting input power demand (draw) peaks being in a range that a power conditioner should NOT limit. 

I need to read up on the limitation of my simple and cheap conditioner, but envision a real world test: my air compressor (rated at 3.7 kW or 32A at 115V) draws a LOT (i.e. needs a LOT of head room), and its headroom IS noticeably limited (light bulbs dim when in DRAWS). When connecting it my conditioner, any 'headroom limiting' would be evident by the lights bulbs dimming a lot more and longer. 

Reverse test: my ICE design sub amp has a 1.325kVA rating for the transformer. Transformer power output is supplemented by a capacitor rated for 10000 mF at 160 VDC. The rated power consumption listed on the back plate for the amplifier is 1200W at 115V. That amp driven hard does NOT result in 'dimming' (my visual sign for 'headroom limiting'). Maybe a bit more of this helps with headroom?

But again, someone surely has measured such 'headroom limiting' from the power source. Sounds to me more like an issue of the power supply of the amp not having sufficient power STORAGE to cover the peak demand?  Reference the car guys with their gigantic power storage to overcome 'headroom limitation from power source'. 

Shunyata Denali 6000S-V2 all Shunyata Apha V2 power cords, amp is a Aestheix Mimas, no issues with dynamics. 

I plug my amps into Monster power conditioners that help with power outages, which is commonplace where I live. No hum. And thankfully I’ve never had gear affected by power surges. 

I think one of the most beneficial aspects of a Power conditioner is that it protects the hardware. I can highly recommend what I have used. A relatively cheap Tripp Lite Power conditioner. After a thunderstorm I see the low  voltage light turned on the device or the high voltage light turned on depending on the situation.  It is compensating for the incorrect voltage which is a good thing.  Also, I would expect noise on the line under those conditions. With either light indicating a problem with the line, and the device compensating, I have not heard any sonic degradation. Thank you.

I use a ZeroSurge on my Pass XA60 mono blocks.  ASR demonstrated that signal in was no different from signal out. I take this to mean no harm, just safe power.  I like safe power.

"As with all the other power tweaks, filters and cables, no fidelity improvement is to be had with 2R15W. It doesn't "clean" the AC in any way that I can measure. And as a result, real-life testing with an amplifier shows the same performance with and without. On the other hand, it is a major sigh of relief that despite pulling some 700+ watts out of the box, it had essentially no impact on the amplifier performance. 

Where this leaves us is that if you like its flavor of surge protection, you can proceed to use it for that purpose and not worry about power loss.

I can't recommend the ZeroSurge 2R15W as a fidelity improvement device. As a surge protector, going by what they say it does, it seems like a better bet than many cheap solutions.

Power conditioners need to be rated so they will deliver enough power to the amplifier. They are usually rated in Watts. In any case, they need to deliver enough power for the dynamic peaks an amp will draw as well as the constant power needed. That being said, I have used a cheaper solution in a Tripplite power conditioner that regulates to 115v if the incoming line power is 85v to 145v. It also has Radio frequency filters. I currently use a Furman power strip ahead of the condioner.   I have used this product for decades with no sound degridation. I replace the condtioner afer 10 years. Anyone saying power conditioning is not helpful does not know how dirty power coming into your home is. Appliances kick in momentarily dipping the voltage. High and low frequency noise is distributed though the grid. This noise wears on power supply components. An oscilloscope will reveal all of the dirty signals propagating in the power. My last amp was 45yrs old before it was retired.

@immatthewj Not really. 

Just also mention, in Oz we are 240V, so compared say with the US, gear doesn’t draw as much current. I feel that this is factor that is rarely taken into consideration in these discussions. Like it or not, we have better “power” at 240V.

Remember that it's very important to have the power amp plugged in someplace or it simply won't work at all. 

@jsalerno277 Most power conditioners do not provide surge protection - make sure what you have is truly protecting your equipment.

My system is much improved running all of it, including ARC Classic 60, through a PS Audio PowerPlant 12. Bass, soundstage, detail all better, no question. And it's all protected from surge. 

no

@bluorion 

Since integrated amplifiers include a power amplifier, then this discussion would be relevant, but I never had hum of any sort prior to using a conditioner.  A conditioner can change/improve the musical presentation and further quiet the background…but it isn’t an overt hum that most of us are concerned with..

I've done both--plugged them into the wall and conditioners.

@bluorion  , do you hear a difference?

Does this apply to integrated amps as well? I've done both--plugged them into the wall and conditioners. I've never had any hum issues with current int amps or vintage.

I have my McIntosh MC611s connected to a Shunyata Typhon T2/Denali 6000/S v2/Omega XC PC combination. I know McIntosh professes a direct connection to the wall, but they should hear what the Shunyata combo does to the sound. Although percentages are difficult to quantify in audio (I will give it a try), there is easily a 50% increase in sound improvement (bass, midrange clarity, soundstage). 

I use a power strip in my system but the amps are not plugged into it- they run off of AC lines of which they are the sole user. My preamp is pretty heavily regulated so it tends to be immune to power cords and the like and the rest of the system hardly draws any current, so it works pretty well.

@atmasphere , thank you; as always you provide helpful input. I posted a question on powerstrips a year or two ago, and I will spare you the entire story (because you would get bored and stop reading in short order) but I ran three dedicated lines into my listening room quite some time ago,

and then

I read some posts that made me question what I had done. First there was a thread about dedicated power lines which attracted several replies and also seemed to generate a few other threads on the subject, and although there was not exactly a universal agreement on the subject (surprise!) the take away I kind of got was that one dedicated line would be preferrable to multiple dedicated lines due to the interaction of grounds and neutral wires on the neutral bar. And not only that, I did not route my three dedicated lines in the wall with a lot of space between them, so I guess if rf is the reason for dedicated lines, I’d say that I didn’t achieve anything by that.

Therefore I put all my gear (CDP, pre, amp, sub) on one duplex. In order to do that, I used my glorified power strip for the CDP and the pre and I plugged my amp and sub into a 3 into one adapter/plug that I plugged straight into the wall.

I guess my other option is to connect the duplex that I am using to another duplex (in a series, if I am using the term corr4ectly?) which would give me two more outlets (on one dedicated line) and I would no longer have to use the glorified strip and the 3 into 1 adapter plug. I have kind of been holding off on that because where I have the 3 gang outlet box for my system is not the most comfortable place for me to work.

I plug mcIntosh mono amplifiers into a transparent power isolator. It doesn’t restrict anything and is designed to remove lots of magnetic Radio frequency noisy stuff along the way. It cost around $6000. Also well insulated power cables are kind of important too. Just spend some money and get a nice box that you can plug your gear into and I think you’ll live more happy.

Plus it offers a hydraulic surge protector which is appealing. The purists don’t like surge protectors but I don’t see the problem and my panel has a surge protector but I don’t wanna take a chance and destroy a very expensive amplifier because of some stupid lightning bolt due to a large tree I own or whatever.

The Spectral Audio manual says to plug their amps into the wall.  I don't use any devices to clean or regenerate power for any of my audio equipment.

@dentdog Anything with a transformer (like an isolation transformer) is subject to the distortion made by the transformer itself. Generally speaking, to avoid excess distortion from the transformer it must not be loaded past 50% of its rated capacity. You'll have to work out the math (Firefox has a security warning on my machine that suggests the Audiopax site doesn't have a proper certificate so I couldn't make out how much current the amps draw) to see how you sit. Obviously a passive power transformer cannot correct for a line Voltage drop and it will pass distortion that is already on the line.

@immatthewj Power cords (and power strips) have a Voltage drop across them (Ohm's Law), which is why power cords and the like have an effect on the sound of the equipment used with them. You really want to keep that to a minimum. The more power the equipment draws the more effect the power cord can have; feedback in the equipment will help it reject AC line Voltage effects. So the efficacy of power cords and such vary from system to system, sometimes by quite a lot.

I use a power strip in my system but the amps are not plugged into it- they run off of AC lines of which they are the sole user. My preamp is pretty heavily regulated so it tends to be immune to power cords and the like and the rest of the system hardly draws any current, so it works pretty well. 

@atmasphere 

Current limiting starts at the power cord. Any time you have a glorified power strip, like so many so-called 'power conditioners' seen marketed to the high end audio community, the power cord it uses will have a voltage drop.

is a strip acceptable for all but the amp, or are you saying that everything should plug directly into the wall?

Ralph, would appreciate your opinion on my situation. My system's power is supplied by an EQUI=TECH 5Kva wall unit running six dedicated lines, two to the front end, four to the amps (Audiopax M100 monoblocks)  and REL Subs. Am able to dedicate each outlet to one amp and one sub. 

Run the front end through the two lines near the rack. In the case of the phono pre the line is filtered again through a BPT 3.5 sig plus in series with the ET wall unit. Do you estiimate this setup to be optimal. The general wall outlets are daisy chained so obviously subject to noise polution.

I have found that the common suggestions about amps and power conditoners etc. are suggestions not rules. I configure my system and then listen to it. Sounds so basic, but I haven't always done my due diligence. I did listen to my Griffon EVO plugged into my Everest and then alternatively directly into two didicated lines. It sounded better directly from the wall, more present. Three weeks ago I tested the new 30 amp version of the Shunyata Typhon. First using one with both EVO power cords into the same Typhon, then using two Typhons each with the twist lock 30 amp umbilical and my other components plugged into the duplex outlets on the back of the Typhons. This configuration opened up the sound along with other sound improvments that I cannot unhear. The final solution I picked was two Typhons with umbilical cords that are plugged into the Swiss Digital fuse system, then from that box to the amp is an Audioquest Dragon High current power cord into the Amp. This solution is expensive, but has totally changed my sound to one I find grain and harsh free.

The point of my rant is to try as many combinations as you have the patience and resources to try. The engineer types are right most of the time, but the output is what we are after as determined by our own ears. 

I've used power conditioners for a long time from an Adcom ACE 515 (still in my video system) to my current Bryston BIT-15. I always plug the power amp into the outlets designed for them as I like a single switch that turns the entire system on...power amp last on and first off using the amp's switch (the Bryston doesn't have the ability to do this itself). No hum, everything dynamic as it should be with zero difference between plugging the power amp into the wall or the conditioner (yeah, I checked that out). I use one of the "garden hose" Pangea AC cables for the Bryston.

Luv the atmosphere comments and his knowledge has always seemed more valuable and correct to me wish more manufacture would comment without bias like he has done 

My power spikes minimum 3 x a wk.ihave to use them and have several types most high end.i might lose some sound quality but not 30 k worth a Mac 1.25 and several others even through the surge protectors. The emotiva amps go into safety mode even though high end surge protectors and sound conditioners.they have some type of protection from factory.other amps dont.i have several amps that are 20 amp high watage sometimes 1 amp 1 plug all on 20 amp lines because sound cond only do so many amps. I wish I could plug directly in to the wall but can't risk it.most manufactures state plug directly to wall. Sometimes it's a compromise. Enjoy the music.stay healthy.music calms the savage beast.

Current limiting starts at the power cord. Any time you have a glorified power strip, like so many so-called 'power conditioners' seen marketed to the high end audio community, the power cord it uses will have a voltage drop.

We recommend to our customers that unless they have a real power conditioner (like the old Elgars, or possibly one or a pair of the higher powered PS Audio units) that they plug directly into the wall. This is not only because of the sole power cord issue I just mentioned but also because most of the 'power conditioners' we've seen don't do much at all or can have deleterious effect.

The guy doing the teardown at the link doesn't understand how the Elgar works and these date from the 1970s not the 1990s :) so they usually need refurbishment to be reliable (they are designed for 24/7 operation). Elgar got out of the conditioner market in the early 1980s. 

The Elgar is a good example how how power conditioning should be done. It has an enormous power transformer through which the AC line moves. It has taps for various power supplies for the low distortion oscillator, housekeeping circuits and the large feedback amplifier. The output of the transformer is compared to the oscillator which is sync'ed to the AC line frequency. The feedback signal thus generated is amplified and applied to the transformer, bucking its Voltage (IOW 'regulating') and correcting distortion; this is done without current limiting right to the upper limit of the unit's spec- in the case of the one at the link, about 30Amps!

The PS Audio Regenerators also use an oscillator and an amplifier, whose output is converted to the AC line voltage by a transformer. Feedback allows it to also maintain low distortion.

If your conditioner does not do these things its likely so much junk. It might help in low current applications for isolation (such as seen in the Furman units) where power amplifiers should not be involved. If you don't have active circuitry to allow the conditioner to maintain low distortion of the output AC waveform, its not really going to work. You may have had good results with whatever you're using, but if you have a real conditioner the results are far more palpable.

Should they is a judgement call and I encourage you to test with your ears.

I have a Shunyata Delta power conditioner and plug my Moon 860AV2 into it.  I like the sound and I also appreciate the protection.  (I also have a whole house surge protector.)

I suppose it depends about the power conditioner that is used, many do limit dynamics.

However, I have found that plugging my amps into my Niagara 7000 improves the dynamics, and overall sound quality over just plugging the amps into the dedicated wall outlet.

ozzy

+1 Mesonto,

There will always be advocates for both cases (conditioner vs. directly to wall). In my system I have my amp directly to the receptacle, as I tried it through the Panamax M5300-PM where it collapsed the dynamics a bit....and seemed to compress bass speed. Signal components go through the Panamax.

What truly made a huge difference: 2 dedicated lines for the amp and the conditioner, high quality receptacles (Furutech GTX-D(G), Furutech GTX-D(R), and Oyaide R1), and upgrading my power cords away from my first Pangea power cords.

Direct hands-on comparison:

My system includes a pair of 220wpc amps driving an easy load (Harbeths). It always sounded OK, but never quite like what was promised by the most credible published reviews. Cable upgrades, room treatments, vibration mitigators, all made some difference, but I felt there should be more.

After extensive research, I added an Audioquest Niagara 5000 conditioner and full set of complementary AQ power cords. Invested about $7000 total. The transformation was dramatic. Holographic soundstage, more realistic imaging, and vastly improved reproduction of tiny details, such as room ambiance. Overall, one of the biggest sonic improvements I’ve experienced in any system I’ve ever owned.

And oh yeah, the addition of the conditioner also improved headroom. Yup, that’s right. Maybe it was just a matter of better transient response making everything sound punchier, but the improvement was dramatic..

The ponit is that every setup is different and a successful power-conditioning strategy calls for the research required to make an educated decision. In my case, I had a 7-year-old house with combined utility power & rooftop PV. No ground hum or aluminum wiring, but during the day, a lot of inverter noise. I blindly tried a few $3-500 power conditioners that were little more than surge protectors, and heard no difference. It wasn’t until I took the time to understand the technology that I had such profound results. I’d never consider running my system today without the AudioQuest power-conditioning in place. I’m sure that analogous Shunyata gear would also provide significant improvements.

Properly designed conditioners, like the sophisticated Niagara line do a lot more than reduce audible noise. One benefit of the Niagaras is that they effectively create reservoirs of power that provide the energy needed by an amplifier to reproduce peaks. Randomly matching a crappy $500 conditioner with a beefy, current-hungry amplifier can certainly limit dynamics. But if you take the time to do it right, you stand a good chance of greatly improving your sonics.

And the quality of your amplifiers doesn’t necessarily obviate the need for power conditioning. Michael Fremer himself still uses a Niagara front end for his Dartzeels (!), even after having his entire house wiring, all the way to the curb, replaced a few years ago.  Even running a dedicated line to your system can be effective, but in some cases, you need more.

Bottom line is that every system is different and every owner has to decide what type of power conditioning (or amended house wiring) is most cost-effective in his or her specific case. You can’t make an across-the-board statement one way or the other, even re:parameters like headroom, w/o first spending time on self-education and analysis on the order of the effort you’d make when shopping for speakers.

I speak from personal experience.

It amazes me to hear all these different opinions here, some of them based on the equipment they have bought.

Something I learned a couple of decades back was to make sure your power was as clean as possible to your equipment in the first place. What I always suggest to everyone regardless of their equipment or what they want to spend on a power conditioner (or two...) is that they look after their power coming into their equipment first. Make sure you have dedicated lines to your equipment and that this power is not shared with the rest of your home. Only after this is done can you start comparing ’line conditioners’.

To be fair and to note, I have a couple of upper-end Chang Lightspeeds that I still power my preamp and non-power hungry components into. But any power delivery component such as an amp or subs are plugged directly into the wall.

To this day, and in 3 different homes, this has been by far the best configuration. (all direct comparisons because none of these homes had dedicated power panels to a music room to begin with)

Current delivery and immediacy seems to be the defining point. At least in my system anyway. I was plugging my amp directly into a high quality outlet to much better effect (another important thing to consider btw), until I got a good deal on a used Chang Lightspeed power bar and filter that touted “unlimited current”.
With that in place and everything plugged into it, literally no difference than plugging the amp straight into the wall in terms of dynamics and scale. But a slight improvement on background there from what I can tell.

@ghdprentice  did it also shrink the sound stage? What about tonal balance? How about rhythm  and pace? Tone? 

Do you use any of the hifi  receptacles or the hifi  plugs? 

Regards

All of my components are plugged into my MPC1500. C2700, MC611's, MCD600,MP1100. I have never had any issues. The MPC1500 has both switched and unstitched outlets available. When there is the threat of storms in the area which is frequently this time of year, I unplug the MPC1500. 

For whatever it's worth, in my experience with my Parasound Halo a21+, plugging it directly into the wall or into my Black Lion PG2R conditioner/regulator dedicated power amp section has resulted in no significant improvement. Furthermore, other tweaks made on this specific amp has resulted in no significant improvement, like Patrick Cullen PC and purple fuse. However, the PCs and fuses upgrades have had very significant improvements on all my digital gear. Point being, you always have to find these things out for yourself with your particular system in your listening environment. There is unfortunately no shortcut.

Dedicated line from panel to amp. Everything else goes into the power conditioner. After experimenting, this arrangement has worked best for me…. Just sayin’