Toe in is crucial

It took us 4 hours to get my speaker placement correct, and the use of tape on the floor so you know where you started. That is only part of the equation, room treatment changes everything.

Setup in general, including toe-in is definitely a big deal.

Our living room doubles as my listening room, and most of the time the speakers are placed too far into the corners, per order of my chief decorator. On occasion (mainly when she leaves town to visit sisters), the speakers get moved to a more optimal position....it takes hours to get the spacing and toe-in just right, but it can really make or break the sound.

I'm the rest of us, and I don't obsess over the smallest tweaks, most of which are simply conduits for confirmation bias. However, toe in can indeed make all the difference. Like, @hilroy48, i blue-taped the placement grid for my Spatial Audio M3's and found that even 1/2" made an audible (though not huge) difference. And I'm still dubious about how Reference 3A advises NOT to toe in my de Capo's. Yet anytime I do toe them in, the sound muddies up.

You’re absolutely correct. Proper speaker toe-in is absolutely critical. In my room, it took me forever and a day to finally get my speaker toe-on spot-on. It took a lot of time and patience, but once I got the speakers toe-in just right, I began to experience the kind of audio nirvana that I was seeking.

Proper toe-in is definitely one of the critical basics of speaker placement. I have the same speakers as you. Getting it right took me a long time… I was not in a hurry. Purchase of speakers… upgrading components and cables took a year until I finally got to fine tuning my speakers. I found a gradual change in the soundstage from having the beams crossed behind my head to no toe in. In my venue, no toe in gives the widest / deepest soundstage without loosing the central image, where the speakers disappear. I was surprised since the recommended toe in is to have them cross behind your head. Just shows you have to do your own place.

I have had speakers (electrostatic and ribbon) where 1/8th an inch made a big difference. In my room the Sonus Faber Amanti change their presentation gradually. 

This is what I use:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0863RK1KX/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

By placing it on top of the speaker along the inside edge, I'm able to fine tune the hight as well as direction.  I'm sure ton's of people use these.

Toe in changes the speakers relationship to the room as well as the listener. These variables are not easy to account for. So, it is very much a trial and error undertaking. First it is important to deal with first reflection points on the side walls in particular. I always start with the speakers perfectly perpendicular to the radius aimed directly at the listening position then if the image is not well focused start gradually reducing toe in. @ghdprentice Because line sources radiate in a figure 8 fashion, they send no energy towards the side walls. They should always be aimed directly at the listening position for the best image. As you note, reducing toe in changes the sound in a much more dramatic fashion, usually for the worse. Any brightness should be handled electronically. On the bright side the side walls do not require absorption. Only the front wall behind the speaker needs absorption. SALLIEs are the best. You can see them on my system page. 

Everyone should try with less toe in as part of the adjustment.  I prefer a wider soundstage, with the central image still maintained.  I have listened to several systems with so much toe in, the soundstage is lost and the singer sounds like a point source.  Further, toe in R to L does not have to be the same - adjust it to your room. 

Amen brother, I spent 6 months adjusting my current speakers before I was satisfied.  Everything matters but I've found that the type of tweeter matters most to get a good synergy.  Toe in defiantly matters!

A couple of years ago I made floor mounted angling devices that attach to the plinths of my Cornwall 4's. These brackets are perfectly centered on the wall behind the speakers and can be used to change the distance between the speakers relative to my center listening position, and then the angles between the speakers to high precision - about 1/16 of an inch. The speakers are both attached to the devices on one corner that pivots to the common wall behind them. To alter the angle from the wall is simply a matter of pivoting the speaker on the attachment point while measuring the swinging speaker corner to the wall behind it. A yardstick with 1/16th inch resolution controls the amount of "swing" (angle.)

Being able to easily adjust toe in quickly and effortlessly with such fine control was one of the best mods to my system.

@hilroy48 that is very fast timing. I get to move them around for several days in and out during listening till I find what I want.

@czarivey  The dealer I bought them from, Brought some reference Media he likes and know what it is supposed to sound like. From there we played my music for the final tweaking that suited my ears. I have the option to move my listening chair back and forth as well. 

When I get new speakers I always try no toe in and on axis back to back to see the extremes. I almost always end up somewhere in the middle. 

This subject is on my mind right now. For years, I was listening in my room with no toe-in. About two years ago, i decided to toe in my speakers to see what, if anything, i might be missing. At the time, the toe-in I achieved allowed me to 'improve' the width of my soundstage and I was happy with that. Now about three months ago, i decided I wanted to hear what my old set up sounded like, so back to zero toe-in I went. Well to say the improvement is quite noticeable and in all ways better would be an understatement! I had noticed a very slight amount of brightness when the speakers were toed-in, assuming that this was part of a source problem, as the issue came and went depending on the recording. Now, that issue is no more, the horns again have the right amount of blat, the depth and soundstage is even wider and the bass is simply more there. No issues with any type of fatigue, that I now put down to the tweeters aimed directly at my ears before. So, although it clearly can be beneficial to toe-in, and highly system room dependent, the lesson here, at least for me, is that this not always the case. 

From now on, my speakers are straight ahead.

@daveyf 

+1 sometimes that is the way to get there… with long intervals.

When ever I look at a wannabe audiophile's system...if there is no tow in they are either clueless or have an angry wife......

In my house of stereo with PBN MONTANA XPS speakers, I have zero toe-in. I learned from an audiogon member, that if your room is properly dimensioned and treated, there is no need for toe-in. I tried every toe-in imagineable before but I no longer ever need the need for any. Diffusion on first reflection points was the key.

@sounds_real_audio    Interesting comment, does that apply to what i posted above??

@baylinor  That is my experience as well.

My horn speakers are pointed right at me.  If my room was wider that might change but I have great imaging and wide sound stage. 

@sounds_real_audio 

It can also depend on the design of the speakers, my apogee duetta 2 speakers sound best without any toe in.

Toe-in is just one of the variables in the equation in determining, specifically, image and soundstage width/depth/height.  Depending on the speakers' vertical and horizontal dispersion pattern, adjusting those parameters including toe-in, separations bet. speakers, from front/side walls and the distance to the listening position will all play key roles.  The room acoustics come into play as well.  It is sort of complicated...  

I agree with an earlier post regarding Reference 3a speakers and toe in. I've had a couple of pairs of Grand Veenas over the years and any toe in whatsoever and the magic is gone.

"Toe" is a term from automotive wheel alignment referring to wheels' geometric relationship to straight ahead on the vertical axis. Zero degrees is straight ahead. Some loony reviewers cannot figure it out. 

Speakers are for ambiance and pleasure. If toe makes you post here make your next speakers something that radiate nice and wide. And use plenty of power.

@12many But don't we want the singer to be point source? I mean, isn't a singer's mouth a defined, localized space about 2" wide? And isn't the challenge with the other instruments in the orchestra/band, where they are spread over the sound stage? This was my problem with the Bose 901s, that the singer's mouth seemed as large as my front wall. Shouldn't the stereo localize the singer as a point source somewhere on the stage between the left and right speakers? Even if she is moving across the stage?

Contrary to the recommendation of the.manufacturer, my GE Tritons sound ideal with no toe in at all. I have plenty of space on either side of the speakers.  I think if that space is narrow you have to toe in to avoid side reflection from the walls.

@daledeee1   -  yes , horn speakers are exeption about toe in

Horns are also important on toe-in, IMHO, Some very smart people like Autokinesis use exaggerated toe in, as much as 45%. Check out some of his post on this subject.

@hsbrock   I suppose it depends on how one interprets the term point source.  While a singer themselves are a point source, when I listen to performances the sound radiate outward and will reflect in the room.  By the time it hits me some distance away, it sounds full and expansive.  Were they standing a meter in front of me, it may sound like a point source.  When I toe in too much, everything collapses and the singer can sound narrow, like through a tube and even the instruments are next to the singer.   I agree that the singer should be placed on the sound stage, but I prefer a fuller expansive voice as compared to it sound narrow or confined when I listen, which also spread the instruments to reflect their position on the stage.  Of course, personal preferences are most important in this hobby and it nice that we can adjust the speaker position to our personal preferences.  Sometimes I even adjust them for a listening session to mix it up.  

Correct - once you find that speaker position, a little change can bring the soundstage into focus.  Most people cannot find that position so they never her the change.

@xpsvwino. Do you place a piece of paper @ your listening position, mark the point and then move the laser to the other speaker? Was just thinking two of these units might make it easier (including setting points further behind listening position precisely)

Toe in is important, but too rarely do we talk about listening height. We are all of different stature and surely have different listening chairs. Standmount speakers are put on whatever stands with different footers, maybe backward slant etc. That is an important and difficult variable, the professional reviewers sometimes mention it, often not.

@fynnegan 

I raised my Joseph audio perspective speakers up several inches

on footers and a marble platform, and the result was a wonderful

Increase in height and overall soundstage scale.

I am well aware of the importance of toe-in in some speakers, but I have always preferred those speakers that work better with no toe-in at all, like my Totem Model 1 or Thiel CS.5.

As @ghdprentice says - "Proper toe-in is definitely one of the critical basics of speaker placement", which I am in complete agreement. But one thing which no-one has mentioned; and that's to look at what YOUR speaker maker recommends, and start there. I use Mag 1.7i's and they reco that the tweeter should be closer to you (when tweets placed on inner edge) = toe in. Each speaker type has massively different vertical and polar response plots, so one cannot say that toe in/out for speakers is good/bad/right/wrong. It depends entirely on the speaker and the room. My old Apogee Stage used very little toe in, but these Mags require quite a lot. And TINY changes make a large and noticeable difference, and staying with panels, the tilt of the speaker; Apogee even supply a plumb line to get this right. And panel distance to listener MUST be the same - I use a laser measure, and just moving one speaker 10mm (3/8" to you guys) forward/back makes a BIG difference to the focus of the sound stage.

And, @ortodox - that is completely wrong. Horns require toe in/out/none adjustment too, as acman3 also says - I KNOW, from personal experience.

As for @incorrigable - What a load of balony (I couldn't think of anything less insultng to say, rather than what I wanted to say!) - BO**OCKS. Which can also be applied to your 2nd paragraph, more so in fact! WtF has Power got to do with anything here? NOTHING! And; "If toe makes you post here make your next speakers something that radiate nice and wide" - what ARE you on about?? Stop taking whatever you're on!

Toe in Definitely but a 1/8 of inch to 1/2 inch , can make a Big Difference Really. Whatever....is it me ?

Great post. Absolutely true. I moved my speakers every week for over a year until my wife was certain I was quite mad, but at this point it does remind me of listening to music, which is all I ask.

Courage! Experiment! Play! Enjoy! If I can do it with my 165lbs speakers, you can too.

As a famous race car designer once said: "If you want to shave 100 pounds off a race car, you have to find 1,600 ways to save an ounce."

I've heard people state that, with electrostatics and planers, you need to sit, head fixed in a vice, to maintain a balanced image and stage. I've found, with both my Quad ESL 63s and my Magnepans, that, with a great deal of attention to placement and especially toe in, I can achieve a large, well maintained image and stage, even when setting or standing, well out of the sweet spot. 

Great conversation. Thanks. I think a really good point is how toe-in in a given room and based on one’s one preference can significantly deviate from a manufacturers recommendation. If I recall SF Amati are recommended to be toed in direct at the listing position. For me, while this does create greater imaging, the sound stage decreases significantly, and the vocals become too defined in space, and treble a bit strident (despite having Mc equipment and a tube pre).

My starting point is probably having the tweeters shoot past my shoulders, then ¼-½ adjustment out seems to be a good spot for now. Maintain a decent imaging, but the soundstage just opens up and envelopes the room. 
 

Truly for me, the change is more profound than switching up cables, and depending on the price point could rival the change of a DAC. At one point I was feeling my DAC was too sharp and went through an odyssey of different DACs. I wish I had understood then, that the first thing I should have done was to adjust the toe-in.

Lesson learned!

I currently have a (broken in) loaner pair of SF Amanti G5’s and after they set them up as they were instructed to, there was no depth and and the top end was muted. They said that they took a 12 hour course on how to set them up. After they left, I spent a couple of hours moving the G5’s around and now there is a soundstage and some depth.Still don’t have wife approval yet to spend that kind of money, but it’s looking like she’s going to give in. At least I'll still have the painters tape to use as guide lines when the new pair comes.😀

@w123ale , You are so right. I used this and it opened a whole new dimension of my system:

https://isoteksystems.com/products/ultimate-system-set-up-disc/

Doesn't save time, but when you get it dialed in, WOW!

@daveteauk   i am not wrong  -  i am talking about Zingali QA 3,8 speakers  where

it is so.

The difference between using toe in and obsessing et al is that EVERYONE can hear the change with toe in.