WHY DO SOME AUDIOPHILES TRY TO TELL OTHERS WHAT THEY CAN OR CAN’T HEAR IN A SYSTEM?

@hilde45 glad that works for you.  If it measures perfectly and my ear doesn’t like it. IT’S OUTTA THERE. IT’S USELESS. Music is a get away for me.  It’s not work or a science.  It’s an experience.  Anyone who disagrees with me on that part of it. We are not the same or seeking the same.  But if it works for them im not going to judge thier knowledge or experience. Just don’t tell  me I’m not hearing what I’m hearing.  

Some are more interested more in the music than the science of it all. Damn a measurement does it sound good to my ear. Is all I need to know.

False opposition for me. I’m interested in the science of it because I listen to music. There can be a connection between the science and the immersive experience of the music.

Perhaps this analogy will ring true: no one who bakes at higher altitudes dismisses those little scientific hints about adjusting the temperature. Just because there are crackpots out there with bad or pseudo-scientific advice about baking doesn’t make me ignore the relevant and helpful scientific advice. And I pay attention because following it makes the food "just taste better."

Of course, maybe the point of this discussion is to shake a fist at "those damn measurement people." Not my bag, man.

Some are more interested more in the music than the science of it all. Damn a measurement does it sound good to my ear. Is all I need to know.

Because some people believe in scientific facts and others believe in snake oil marketing.

I’m a try before you buy kind of guy at this point 

It may be mere apocryhpa, but I've always heard that Oscar Wilde said something along the lines of:

"The need to censor is the most powerful driver of human behavior.  Next to it, the sex drive is barely noticeable."

@calvinj

calvinj’s original posting question has suddenly morphed somewhat with the three answers received in the last hour.

Gee whiz !

Runaway train…..

Discombobulated ?

————-

What do you make of it calvinj ?

     Feynman was and will remain, my favorite lecturer (yeah: I'm that old).

     He mentioned often (and: I took to heart) his favorite Rule of Life: "Never stop learning!"

     For all his genius, he never grew overly confident in his beliefs.    The perfect obverse to the Dunning-Kruger sufferer.

     ie:  “I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing.  I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong.”

     and: “I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything.”

     Tesla is probably my favorite innovator, who (despite the incessant, projectile vomit, from his day's naysayers), took the World, kicking and screaming, into the 20th century, with his inventions.

                                                  His thoughts: 

     “Anti-social behavior is a trait of intelligence in a world full of conformists.”

     “All that was great in the past was ridiculed, condemned, combatted, suppressed, only to emerge all the more powerfully, all the more triumphantly from the struggle.”

                         WELL: the Cargo Cult's still building runways.

                                          Time for another repost:

Cargo cult science is a pseudoscientific method of research that favors evidence that confirms an assumed hypothesis. In contrast with the scientific method, there is no vigorous effort to disprove or delimit the hypothesis.[1] The term cargo cult science was first used by physicist Richard Feynman during his 1974 commencement address at the California Institute of Technology.[1]

Cargo cults are religious practices that have appeared in many traditional tribal societies in the wake of interaction with technologically advanced cultures.

     Do a bit of research and you'll learn those primitives were limited in their understanding of what they saw with their eyes, based on their prior experience, education and BIASES.

                                                A rewind:

                 It isn't that the Denyin'tologists are ignorant.

               It's they're knowing* so much, that's WRONG.

                       *heart of the Dunning-Kruger Effect

                                              OR, two:

     The Church of the Naysayer Doctrine (like every other faith-based, religious cult) has as many dopes as it does Popes.   

     Bring up anything resembling SCIENCE/PHYSICS, dated later than the 1800’s and they become apoplectic, not having the formal education to comprehend the concepts, or- possible ramifications.    THAT would be hilarious, were it not so pathetic!        

           Gimme That Old Time Religion, Gimme That Old Time Religion, etc.

        At the very first mention of something as simple as Wave Function (a BASIC tenet of Quantum Mechanics), the Cargo Cult will label you a KOOK.

        But remember: they can only view/understand you, based on their limited experience, education and BIASES.

         They have overlooked the fact that, if not for the hypotheses/theories and experimentation, regarding Quantum Mechanics: a plethora of modern conveniences, medical devices and the gear they so love, would not exist.

          Had scientists, chemists and inventors shared the doctrines of the Cargo Cult (Denyin'tologists), there would be no semiconductors, computer chips, LASERs, or Magnetic Resonance Imaging devices (MRIs).

                                         Solid State amps?

                                     OOPS (back to tubes)!

                                        Your Smart Phone?

                                        FA'GET ABOUT IT!

                                         Your car's GPS?

                                                NOPE!

    Then too: some may be willfully ignorant and just enjoy being contentious.

                        Others: obtuse, uneducated*, misinformed?

      *Typically, from what's been exhibited here: H.S. STEM, if that, would be a safe inference.

      Either way: the result, when the Cult begins it's rhetoric, is a classic demo of the Dunning- Kruger Effect.

                                          But, I digress: 

       Bring up those pesky details, regarding the likes of QED, Dielectric Absorption, Poynting's theorem and possible application/effects, relative to frequency, that our musical signals are carried via photon or wave, outside the conductor and you're a KOOK?

         Again: the Cargo Cult can only understand anyone with an actual background, experience and education in Physics/QED, based on their own beliefs, (limited) education, experience and biases.                                      

     One anecdote that some may find interesting; about their walks in the woods and how Richard Feynman's father would encourage him to look beyond the fact that something in nature exists, into why and how.

     It saddened him that while attending college, during a visit home and one of their walks; his dad asked what he was learning in college.

     At that moment he realized: if he tried to explain what he was learning, there was no way his dad could understand.                               

                            It wasn't an insult or condescension.

                                                Just reality.

                                  Oh well: let the cult go build a runway!

                                                        references:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applications_of_quantum_mechanics#:~:text=Examples%20include%20lasers%2C%20electron%20microscopes,systems%2C%20computer%20and%20telecommunication%20devices.

https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsquantum-mechanics#:~:text=Quantum%20mechanics%20led%20to%20the,the%20science%20of%20quantum%20mechanics!

https://uwaterloo.ca/institute-for-quantum-computing/quantum-101/quantum-applications-today

          But: I'm, "religious", because I believe in the SCIENCE, from which all that sprang?

     https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/five-practical-uses-spooky-quantum-mechanics-180953494/

           Einstein got that last one wrong (Quantum Entanglement), BUT- I still wish he'd been alive, when the Hubble Telescope proved, what he considered his, "greatest blunder" (his inability to bring symmetry to his field equation, without lambda)

.https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200507/history.cfm#:~:text=Einstein's%20original%20equations%20had%20been,how%20the%20universe%20will%20end.                                     

                                            How about that?

Another example of a hypothesis/theory, with no way to EXPERIMENT/MEASURE, what you're sure must be there, in some detectable way, or another.

                                               Just for fun:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/6-times-quantum-physics-blew-our-minds-in-2022/

                                            Happy listening!

                                              Once again:

     No one can tell you whether/how your system, room and/or ears will respond to some new addition.   There are simply too many variables.

     LIKEWISE: no one can possibly know whether a new addition (ie: some kind of disc, crystal, fuse, interconnect, speaker cable, etc)  will make a difference, in their system and room, with their media and to their ears, without trying them for themselves.   

     Some companies offer a 30 Day Satisfaction Guarantee, so- those that are actually interested, have absolutely nothing to lose by trying (experimenting with) such.     

     Anyone that knows anything about the sciences, realizes that something like 96% of what makes up this universe, remains a mystery.       

     For centuries; humanity’s seen, heard, felt and otherwise witnessed phenomena that none of the best minds could fathom, UNTIL they developed a science or measurement that could explain it.     

     The Naysayers want you to trust their antiquated science (1800’s electrical theory) and faith-based, religious doctrine, BLINDLY (their credo: "Trust ME!"). 

     Theories have never proven or disproven anything.  It’s INVARIABLY testing and experimentation that proves or disproves theories/hypotheses.   

     IF you’re interested in the possibility of improving your system’s presentation, have a shred of confidence in your capacity for perceiving reality and trust your own senses: actually TRY whatever whets your aural appetite, or- piques the curiosity, FOR YOURSELF.         

                 The Church of Denyin'tology HATES it, when THAT happens!

This issue doesn't put me on the defensive or make me angry.

It's pretty simple, actually. Sometimes someone tells me I cannot hear something, and I ask if there's another ways to listen. Often, there is.

Hearing, like the other senses and taste in general, can be developed. I have learned to hear better because other people have helped me to become attentive in a new way. 

calvinj

‘It is usually against those who spend money on more expensive equipment and cabling. Why is this so prevalent?’

Its called PENnIeS Envy!

They either don’t have one, can’t afford one, or are intimidated and feel others equipment  (not literally) …are bigger!

Thats my logic!

The internet is both a blessing and a curse. Everyone does the google to become an expert. It's the time we live in. 

Sometimes, I think we don't know what we are missing until we do. What I mean is, we all think our systems sound good. We might not know that if we do X it will sound so much better. 

let me explain

My system is all vintage, it sounds wonderful!! Went down the hole that is tweaking. Got some improvements here and there. Then I did a partial recap on my pre-amp, just changed out 12 caps in the sound path. WOW, what a difference, changed everything, had no idea what I was missing!! That lead to a FULL refresh on both pre and power amps. OMFG, HUGE difference! More detail, more dynamics, bigger soundstage, more bass, more mid, more treble. But most of all, the noise floor almost vanished! 

Had no idea what people really were talking about when they said inky blacks, or dark sound. Low noise floor. During a soft passage to loud, I literally jump in my chair now. When it's quiet, it's really quiet!!! Now I fully understand what a low noise floor does. 

My point is, we don't always fully understand what others are trying to tell us, or what certain things really mean, until we experience them for ourselves. Now, I totally can hear all the background noise, totally miss all the detail on other systems. 

Generalizations, assumptions, presumptions, interpolations, extrapolations certainly dominate audiophile discussions. Direct experience with the exact issue or topic at hand doesn't mean much these days, too many voices pulling people in too many directions, I 'd hate to be a newbie audiophile today. Back in the day before social media we needed direct experience in order to learn. I very well remember the demonstrations @mrkrichman spoke about, I was often confused coming out of those as I didn't trust my own expertise or sensory perception. Over time with more direct experiences I became a much more self assured audiophile.

If it's not, it should be!

Why? Is dumbassery a word?

I just joined the troll union.enjoy the search and the music

It’s how some people choose to interact online.  They may behave the same way in person.  Some people believe things strongly and feel they have to correct others that think or feel differently.  On this site it’s sound on another site it could be politics or food and wine.  If you read about emotional intelligence it’s about having low EQ and boundary issues.  As my Dad used to say, don’t let the turkeys get you down.  

Good philosophy @erik_squires!

My guess, always feeling like a novice, is that people might not know who to believe among the (self) anointed experts.  Seeing that experienced and knowledgeable people disagree, some might suspect there is no “right” answer and that people convince themselves that they don’t need to “go to extremes” to enjoy audio, and that people that do are plagued by some validation bias (they want to believe it, so they do).  

And then there is the law of diminishing returns, which is real.  The difference between a clock radio and a simple stereo set-up is large, while the cost is small.  And going up from there the improvements per money spent diminish.  I understand people that can’t afford much thinking that they are getting a lot and still saving money compared to the mega-deluxe systems.  They think, “I have almost as much as they do — maybe 95% — and I spent a few thousands, while they spend 10’s of thousands for that top few percent improvement.”   But to some the most elusive improvements are everything and worth the money, which they obviously have to spend.

To each their own. 

Some folks feel insecure or uncertain about their own choices, and asserting their opinions on others gives them a sense of validation or confidence.

I meant we all have the same biological parts, but we all hear differently. I just posted it in a ridiculous, long winded way!

@thecarpathian 

Sorry if I misunderstood. I guess I tend to believe "basic" encompasses more than having ears and auditory nerves. But was that, in fact, all you meant?  

I think @jmalen123 wins the prize! 🏆

Simply... they are a-holes.

@mrkrichman man you are spot on. We all hear at different levels.  We have all different tastes. We all have things we like and things we don’t like. That’s what drives me crazy about these damn know it alls that say we have some kind of scientific condition that we don’t know we have GTFOH! 

I have 4 E/V Sentry III's. One on top of the other left and right, The Top one is turned upside down so the two horns are near each other. They are driven by a Marantz Model 500 for the Low 15's... and a Marantz 250 M that drive the Horns and Tweet's. all being pre-amped by a Marantz 3300. Not Bragging... but  to me at Concert Level... they sound really nice.

Enter a fellow Audio Nut bud of mine and he thinks no matter what level you play them at, they suck. LMAO.  Than again someone else thinks they are nice but they take up alot of room and could take them or leave them.

So I just put on Pink Floyd or a direct to disc recording....light up a Cigar and sit back and enjoy my stuff.  You could say..... "You'll Never Be Unhappy With The Best" But when it comes to reproducing Audio, that doesn't always apply.

I know for a Fact how Live sound ...Sounds. I worked and travelled with Frank Sinatra and a 43 Piece orchestra for about 7 years as well as Acts like Diana Ross. They all had different sound mixers. Some lasted.. Some were fired ..Some quit. Why??? Because the Artist came out during rehearsal and didn't like what they heard. 

The only exception was Frank... He just screamed at the band if it didn't sound right on stage in front of a 43 piece band. So..It's all in the ears and Brain Of the beholder....L.O.L.

@mrkrichman I agree with most of what you posted, but our ears are not just a microphone, the ear also has amplifying abilities, your brain just determines how much.

About to become very close to the age of 80, I still find myself fighting the urge to upgrade or experiment.

@llg98ljk  - There's nothing wrong with wanting to experiment, at all, especially if your nature is to be a builder or DIY hobbyist.  I make my own speakers and I doubt I'll ever be "done" because it is fun to try new things.  If for instance an audiophile likes to cycle amps and speakers, or cartridges then sure, sounds fun. 

Lets have fun without turning into boors trying to impress others with the refinement of our ears.

Because some audiophiles are scientists. If it does not show in the measurements, it’s not there.

@mrkrichman man you are spot on. We all hear at different levels.  We have all different tastes. We all have things we like and things we don’t like. That’s what drives me crazy about these damn know it alls that say we have some kind of scientific condition that we don’t know we have GTFOH! 

@rajugsw we can hear a fart from knat! Seriously we can! 

It’s always been a matter of defining what “the threshold of audibility” is. The experimental psychologists have run double blind studies with samples of normal subjects, and come up with answers we audiophiles accept in principle, like a 3dB difference is certainly audible, and a 20dB difference is twice as loud, or that even a .25dB volume disparity will spoil the reliability of an A-B comparison in favor of the louder signal. Controlling for these errors with precision, maintaining the listener blindness, it’s rare that listeners can reliably discern many of the substitutions of cables or components unless one of them introduces a significant alteration to the signal’s integrity…

Even the ASR crowd fall into error by rating SINAD down to infinitesimally low levels. As if less than inaudible distortion or noise is somehow…less. 

I don’t hear as well as I did when young, so my opinion means less now, but I can’t separate the profit motive behind commercial claims of superiority for whatever is being promoted from the verifiable evidence of that claim’s validity.  People hear differently and no doubt some people hear better, but the lure of our hobby is mixed up with all kinds of extraneous factors besides what it takes for truthful sound reproduction. 
 

All Good Points. But there's another factor in play. I used to manage a HiFi Stereo Store back In the day. We had most all Popular Speakers and Amps and Turntables as well as high end cartridges. Also Had all kinds of High end Separates.

The funny thing was what one person loved in combo "A"push button setup, meaning we could push a few buttons and connect any piece to any other piece of equipment, someone else thought it didn't sound as good a Combo "B" they were listening to.

The end result was evident to us. No two people see Color the same....No two People Smell the same smell...and No two people hear the same. When it comes to hearing, biologically, are ears work slightly different, But most of all... Are ears are just Microphones. How we hear is thru the Human Brain. 

So the end factor to us was to just simply select speakers based on what the customer said he liked in a speaker.. Hi ...Mid ..Low. After some time the right combo was selected based on the Preamp Stage of the unit and the output stage of the amplifier plus the speaker.

So what it all means from my $.02 worth is..... Whatever sounds good to you is the correct system.Of course, you should take the time to listen to all in your price range.

CAUSE WE ARE SMARTER. CAN HEAR THE FART OF A KNAT. AND KNOW BETTER THAN THEM. THIS OUR HEARING IS LITERALLY OUT OF THIS WORD !!!! .

But seriously folks. We all here know its more training and teaching others what to and not to listen for. Hell, I’ve been an "expert" for over 40 years ! My Buds in High School and many friends to this day ask me for advice.

My first questions is how much are you willing to spend. The 2nd one is with or without wires. Arrogance doesn’t help especially if someone is just starting out in the hobby young or an old Fxxxck !

So if someone tells you that they can hear (not feel) an 8 Hz or 28kHz sine wave, that doesn’t give you pause?  What if tracks are accompanied by satanic rites heard only by them?

Some things are beyond recognized audibility and it is a fool’s errand to try to convince some people otherwise.

I hope not, tights give me a rash...

@sls883 the ones that say we are not hearing a difference actually think we are stupid. They think we are all suckers and the are the geniuses  WE ARE ROBIN THEY ARE BATMAN!

@dayglow ooh wee! 

@sns that sounds logical.   Exactly! 

@cleeds BINGO! 

Hi, @stuartk ,

I agree, that's why my full sentence is ; 

Something I’ve never seen mentioned is we all have the same basic equipment when it comes to hearing, but it ends there. 

@thecarpathian

Something I’ve never seen mentioned is we all have the same basic equipment when it comes to hearing,

 

Perhaps because there are noticeable variations in this regard? For example, I’m particularly sensitive to highs and this very much impacts my perception of sonics and gear choices.

I try to keep an open mind about everything.  I have not experienced anything paranormal, but I also have a hard time believing that everyone (including my mother and wife) are making up their experiences or imagining it. Thus, I find myself watching lots of paranormal shows. 

Yet, some people feel that audiophiles are fools and that it's impossible to hear differences in a high end cable versus a basic copper cable.  Do they really think that that many people are stupid? 

Because faulty logic and lack of experience overrules an open mind. 

One of the trends in HEA is the "I’m smarter than you guy". This group has always existed but has exploded due to mainly budget orientated Youtube audio sellers that make outrageous claims. Even an Audiogon poster claims a Fosi amp is all one needs(lol). The Irony of this is the Youtube "cult" leaders are lying and laughing while manipulating these unaware "smart guys" with a profitable side hustle.

Interesting question. My first thought is that audiophiles are not guilty of this offense. Kind of by definition. It is another set of people... anti-audiophiles?

Some guys lack a healthy sense of self-worth. They define themselves strictly in terms of a competitive pecking order that requires them to continually "prove" they are "superior" to others, whether smarter, stronger, more sexually dominant, wealthier, etc.

This syndrome is definitely not limited to audio!

Why do it? Because they are A-holes.

@artemus_5   &   @gdaddy1

Dunning–Kruger Effect

                EXACTLY!