??? Where Does "High End" Start ???

Intention and sound quality are the arbiters of high end, not name brand or price. I've heard many systems over many decades, high price and brand name don't necessarily result in high engagement factor. Many boutique manufacturers out there, intention off the charts and they have the chops to pull off the execution. 

@goldenways + 1

To be honest, I started my high end hobby  from circuit city , Best Buy , then to our local high end stores here. Until I met 2 audiophiles who own mark levinsons, audio research, theta , and saw their expensive Audioquest , Kimber , and nice looking cables . The sound and music really is amazing.Then they told it’s high end stuff. 

How does the label “Hugh end” matter? If I spent $20,000 and you’ve spent $80,000 but I like the sound of my system better, does the label “high end” matter? I heard a million dollar system and didn’t like it as much as mine. It was higher end, meaning more expensive but so what? That said, I’ve spent more than I ever expected to create the sound I want but creating the sound you want, I think is what matters.

To me High End has the look, the feel, & the sound. Beautiful pieces..you know what I mean. You open them & every part down to the screws & resistors are top shelf. Cables, connectors, knobs, whatever is in eye's sight looks & feels like a million bucks. Match that with beautiful sound & I'll say that's some High End equipment right thar'. 

Precisely. And if your insecurities compel you to relate that to a price tag, then you're not an audiophile.

I don't think you can put a price on it if we are just talking HE sound. 

I have heard some extraordinary music coming from DIY type tube gear. 

To me High End has the look, the feel, & the sound. Beautiful pieces..you know what I mean. You open them & every part down to the screws & resistors are top shelf. Cables, connectors, knobs, whatever is in eye's sight looks & feels like a million bucks. Match that with beautiful sound & I'll say that's some High End equipment right thar'.  

Like most audiophiles and what they believe sounds better, "high end" is 100% subjective.

Helo Freediver!  The terms used to define quality levels are of use to advertisers only. They don't deserve to be uttered by music lovers and gear enthusiasts. Companies like Adcom, Cambridge, NAD, Outlaw, Schitt, Starke Sound, and others have demonstraited that good sounding gear does NOT have to be astronomically priced. High quality parts are not cheap, but fancy, sculpted, extra thick front panels are much more dear. There is an artistic turn of mind, encouraged by the marketing department, for eye-catching products that look expensive (and are) so those with ample funds will have something to satisfy their need to feel superior to others. 

Great sounding components of a music system do not have to be expensive. You can put together a fine sounding system for $5,000 if you are careful. Read the reviews with caution. If the reviewer says, "I bought the sample product after reviewing it," or "I could happily live with this unit in my system forever," that means it's a good piece of gear. If they say, "If you are looking for  product in this price range, you should consider this one," that means it is ho-hum, keep looking. Reviews sell magazines; that's the publishing business. They need something to write about. You don't see the poor reviews in the magazines. Think clearly, listen and read carefully, and be sure you can return anything you buy within 39 deays for a full refund. Listen to it first if you can. You own your ears, no two people hear the same thing (our ears are shaped differently), make your own decisions. Enjoy the music. 

+1 on Audiotroy’s response.  It’s not price, it’s intention and execution.

@toddalin  ...

"Where Does High End Start???"

...Just above what you can afford.

Good One! 

High End Audio was invented by specific people. Mark Levinson, Bill Z. Johnson, and David Wilson are key names. The former makers of luxury audio, Gordon Gow and Saul Marantz, Bud Fried, Jim Lansing as examples…all practiced economy to an extent…not as much as Dave Hafler or Henry Kloss, but they didn’t go to extremes where the tangible results didn’t make sense. The High End guys lavished military/aerospace/instrument grade parts, extremely expensive metal chassis and transformers, often with a complete disregard for functional utility, in pursuit of vanishing performance benefits. 
The 80s brought us the “Greed is Good” sensibility and the industry took off with fancy parts, exotic materials and questionable engineering choices. The counter argument is also rampant…the ASR crowd, Chi-Fi chip amps and DACs that measure perfectly for a song. 

@whart  “….hard-pressed to give you a better perspective….”

l know my take on all this was well and truly tongue-in-cheek, but after reading your input…. Well, what else is there to say?

Next question…….?

Harry Pearson claimed to have coined the term "high end" in audio back in the day; I don’t know if that’s true, but to trace what is  considered "high end" I think you have to look at the history of audio reproduction devices. First, those of us in the States were not necessarily clued into what the Japanese or French were doing and were largely limited to the audio press in the US circa the ’70s- Stereophile, TAS, Audio and a few other journals, including J. Peter Moncrieff’s newsletter and a few other resources. The Internet did not exist at this time for normals. 

In that era, which I lived through, it was probably easier to distinguish: it was not a receiver, plastic-y turntable and a set of bookshelf speakers (although some acquitted themselves well). Instead, it was separates- preamp/basic amp, table with the ability to mount a separate arm (not an essential defining characteristic but still) and some form of speaker system that purported to do something beyond the norm: Stats plus woofers and super tweets, the Infinity series, various combinations (that included using Maggie bass panels), bi or tri-amping with active crossovers, the use of more rarified cartridges, etc. 

There were also DIY’ers that I knew back in this era who cobbled together pretty good systems based on older components from the "golden age," including tubed Marantz, McI, Rek-o-Kut, Bozak, KLH 9 (double sets), ad nauseam. 

Integrated amps were not part of this, though today, with the lines to differentiate equipment blurred by low cost equipment, that is no longer true. The "quest" was to spare no effort, which often, but not always, meant expense, to achieve something that represented the cutting edge of home music reproduction. 

We have become inured to unrestrained hype, expense and hyperbolic reviews to the point where it is difficult to separate the true, enduring milestone components from the chaff. I don’t pretend to have superior knowledge, I just lived it since around 1970 and built systems for myself that represented the best that I could accomplish-- I went from a mini-HQD system running ARC tubes and an SP-10 in the ’70s-early 80’s to horns and Lamm SETs with a substantial vinyl front end in the early aughts. I spent more than the average citizen and have a very good system but I don’t claim to have an ultimate system, only one that works for me. (In fact, I have a vintage system that represents a good approximation of what I was running in 1975 and it is very enjoyable, also all tube, Quad Loudspeaker and the same SP-10 I had in 1973). 

Today, the lines are blurred. You can buy separates at low cost, and high quality integrated amps that didn’t exist back in the day. Speakers run the gamut- there is no "one way" and a lot, as all of you know, is getting the system to work in the room, not just hardware. Plus, we have credible digital sources today which did not exist for consumers back in the early days of the "high end." 

I do agree that it is more a state of intention than one of price, although given the cost of gear today, a lot of the top tier stuff costs. I’m glad I got into this 50 plus years ago, and while not complacent, I’m no longer on the "quest."

I’d be hard-pressed to give you a better perspective; much is context. 

I don't think its useful to define high end by cost because "high end" "midfi" "lofi," etc., are relative terms, not absolute. Measuring where high end starts by price will always be relative to our own view of what constitutes a lot of money and by our own circumstances. You and I might agree that a $25k speaker is high end, but to the guy who just bought a $250k set of speakers, its likely midfi.  

@superblueapm ”No one should care (much) about such a label.”

superblueapm…. You are the super supreme Ghostbuster.

You have blown this debate wide open for what it is. There appears to be a lot of “gatekeepers and insecure” inhabitants on here. You have captured the myth of it all…. And put it all into a box, just like in Ghostbusters. 
 

Are those with high-end leanings, supernatural beings?

Who you gonna call? ….at 200 mph…  Superblue apm Mythbuster Debunker!

When the 401 k is gone along with everything else.enjoy the music

No one should care about such a label. It’s the province of gatekeepers and the insecure.  Play what you like, can afford and makes you happy. Enjoy music. 

I think what level a component is can also be determined by brand. When we see VAC, Boulder , Rockport , CH Precision ,ARC  etc. don’t we automatically think high end? 

@devinplombier Let me know when you throw the NAD in the trash so I can dig it out. I’d own it with pride. Most American can not afford a NAD. I’d be grateful to own one.

Can not figure out if your statement is a joke or just a bizarre comment. 

If Audio Nirvana is 100% then I’d say high end gets you to 94-100, mid is between 85-93 and entry level is below 85.  

A better questions would be, how much one is willing to shed for Hifidality Audio reproduction? Hifidelity audio, or Hi-Fi, refers to the high-quality reproduction of sound. It aims to recreate the original recording as accurately as possible, with minimal noise and distortion, and a faithful representation of the full range of audible frequencies. It’s a term popular with audiophiles and home audio enthusiasts who appreciate a detailed, immersive, and emotionally engaging listening experience

Based on your listening habits, you can decided the price point where you are satisfied with the music you are hearing. Does it really matter how much you spend to get that sound quality? I don't think so. All other categories from entry level to low-fi, mid-fi, etc., are irrelevant. Amount one can spend on this hobby will depend on many factors. What matters is whether your audio system reproduce Hi-Fi music to your satisfaction at whatever price point you are comfortable.

+1 @gruvjet 

Stop making sense… it confuses them…

Absolute? The point at which your significant other gets really p*ssed at your most recent purchase.

The other day I was wondering "what are the properties of an audio system that make it 'High End'".

I don't think it is a matter of price, though there is some floor.  For example an Eversolo DMP A8 and a carefully chosen pair of Dynaudio Active speakers probably gives one some of the qualities that we value for $5k.

For me the to critical qualities are timbre/tonality - does it sound right, resolution - can you hear into the performance and can you hear the the music in the very quiet passages.  Do you hear the "performance", the shape of the notes, the harmonics, the decays, the subtle changes in loudness?

A high end system will also have a clear soundstage, a clear sense of where the instruments & performers are.

I have two systems, the 2nd system cost perhaps 8k, and makes wonderful music, the primary system makes the music more complete, and the sense of being at the performance much greater - albeit at over 10x the cost.

I have a very musical friend who will have nothing to do with "high end", he listens to his "hi-fi" all the time, but I do not find it a satisfying experience, there is no sense of the performance.

@freediver    Most of the posters believe there is no specific price point per component or complete system, the others are making a poor attempt at comic relief. A better question might be... What sonic parameters are required to attain a true High End Audio (HEA) system? 

So exactly how do we define these terms in absolutes?

This is subjective and not an absolute, getting additional opinions may give you a probability range, but it won’t lead to a definitive absolute. My definition of High-End Audio is simply seeking out Sonics above what is available in the mainstream consumer market.  

I'm not sure about a dollar value but for me on my system it's when I play an album that I have heard many times and think to myself God that sounds absolutely fantastic. 

high end is not about price it is intention

Exactly.

MidFi probably $2K - $8K+ somewhere. Typically where NAD and Rotel fit in.

@ghdprentice why, you are certainly in a generous mood today! The only place NAD fits in is the trash, and only if the can is large enough 😂

There’s no set definition for "high end", and I’m sure it varies by person and is somewhat relative.  To me high end isn’t a focus on a price point....it’s an attitude and philosophy that requires a commitment to make the best you know how, but price understandably tends to be a part of that.   

Big conglomerates buying up smaller companies trying to tap into the profits of the more expensive end of the market, while cheapening as many parts as they can to increase profit is not indicative of how I perceive a true high end approach.  They’re just expensive pretenders.  The true contenders are the businesses that have a real passion for making the best they can that push the envelope of true state of the art. .  

Putting a dollar value on it is not an objective measure. Listen to many systems at all price points, develop your listening and evaluation skills. Hearing systems that appeal to you, try to replicate that at home, once you've reached your goal you're on the mountain top. 

Maybe rephrase the question 

What is the cost of admission to officially join the elite high end audio club? 
 

Some even accept riffraff like me so don’t give up hope!

If you look at the top most expensive systems on here or other "extreme" audiophile hang-outs (god help you if it’s WBF), you’ll quickly find that even $5K per component is considered very cheap. 

"Performance" is a different matter and a whole ’nother can of worms. But I’d say that "normal high end" these days - loosely defined as some unquantifiable aggregate of: performance, build quality, aesthetic, esoteric factor, desirability, price, and brand cache - is going to start at ~25K per component and 50K for speakers. That’s not even "ultra" high-end, not even close. It gets more expensive each year; kind of nuts at this point. Definitely not sustainable.

It's simple.

If a system costs less than $35,607 it is lo-fi.

If a system costs more than $35,607 it is hi-fi.

If a system costs exactly $35,607 (including tax) it is mid-fi.

Take solace in the fact that it’s a totally subjective determination so if you think it is then it is and vice versa. 

Of course, then there is always what the other guy listening thinks but who cares about what other people think?   Trust your ears, right?

An interesting question with no answer. @gruvjet may have nailed it with big bucks v wise choice.

@mapman “Cost and sound… two different things”. Spot on Man…..

My take….

Hi-end does not have a verifiable point or origin for its existence.

Do not let yourself think your system is high-end simply because of a perceived value.

It is a figment of the imagination to put a “value” on it. If you do, you may be just fooling yourself.

The only evaluation that makes any sense is… does it definitely sound better than low-end?

AGAIN A QUESTION.. Who would claim to know where exactly low-end fades into high-end?

Getting into the mid-end debate certainly then clouds the water even more….

Just labelling a piece of equipment as high-end is no guarantee it is. Be very sceptical if this term is offered up by a manufacturer, retailer or Mr. Nextdoor selling his gear.

When there’s dust in your wallet, an your divorced

Cheers 

@freediver 

A search using AI yielded this:
Entry level:$1000.00 -$4000.00
Mid Fi:$4000.00 - $8000.00
High End:$8000.00- $30,000.00
Ultra High End:$30,000.00 +.....
What do you think?

AI doesn't have ears!

And if "its" is even close then I'm over the "Ultra High End" by 3-4 fold! which includes room and a true full range system with four Pass Labs amps never operating out of class A. This is where it ends not starts for me.

Regards,

barts

I have a $12k 300wpc Krell and a $2k 6wpc Decware.  The Decware outperforms the Krell hands down. High end is not a price, it’s performance. 

Remember that high end components that are mismatched do not deliver high end sound.  Cost and sound quality are 2 different yet related things.

@limomangus we need talk. 

Well looking at some of the speakers for sale here,I woul think you better start with speakers costing at least $100,000....So with that said probably about $200K...That leaves me out.

I can offer 3 system cost data points based on my current gear for consideration:

• in a 12X12 room:  ~ 5k
• in a larger 20X30 L shaped  room:  ~9K  (larger speakers with good build quality)
• in a very large open concept-layout family room sacrificing the lowest bass octave: ~7 k 

Cost is retail price, in 2024 dollars, streamer source, amplification, speakers only.

Note: I am no compromise in sound quality but very value oriented when making buying decisions, so I would say my costs are more representative of the "entry point" for true "high end sound" though I can think of ways to achieve similar results for less with just a touch of compromise regarding the lowest octaves perhaps, and/or going used.

I’d like to see similar data points from others in order to help folks reach a valid conclusion based on actual data points.

What if I identify as HEA?

toddalin

468 posts

08-05-2025 at 08:31pm 

"Where Does High End Start???"

...Just above what you can afford.

Best answer!

If it's built to meet a price point, it's low to mid fi.

If it's built to a cost is no object position, it high end.

I don't think it really can classed by MSRP but more by the results obtained. With careful system development and paying attention to everything and how it all works together you can achieve astonishing results. Begin with the end in mind. *Steven Covey 

I don't think you can qualify it by price alone. There are 1K tube amps I would rather have in my system than 3K HT receivers. Some mid fi stuff costs more than quality entry level hi fi gear. And when you shop on the used market, that price disparity can become greater.

There are people who are going to post that HE is a state of mind, that champagne results can be obtained on beer budgets.  However a lot of dosh is spent on this hobby and it is useful to have parameters for discussion.

  The AI definition is reasonable.  Every one that I know in real life would not dream of spending that much

@knock1 not when everyone has their own definitions; then it's meaningless. 

Agree with audiotroy and highway61.I also think brand gives you highend taste. Like Krell, Mark Levinson , audio research, Wilson’s, you can buy their product on used market as well.