WHY DO SOME AUDIOPHILES TRY TO TELL OTHERS WHAT THEY CAN OR CAN’T HEAR IN A SYSTEM?

Why? Is dumbassery a word?

If it's not, it should be!

Generalizations, assumptions, presumptions, interpolations, extrapolations certainly dominate audiophile discussions. Direct experience with the exact issue or topic at hand doesn't mean much these days, too many voices pulling people in too many directions, I 'd hate to be a newbie audiophile today. Back in the day before social media we needed direct experience in order to learn. I very well remember the demonstrations @mrkrichman spoke about, I was often confused coming out of those as I didn't trust my own expertise or sensory perception. Over time with more direct experiences I became a much more self assured audiophile.

The internet is both a blessing and a curse. Everyone does the google to become an expert. It's the time we live in. 

Sometimes, I think we don't know what we are missing until we do. What I mean is, we all think our systems sound good. We might not know that if we do X it will sound so much better. 

let me explain

My system is all vintage, it sounds wonderful!! Went down the hole that is tweaking. Got some improvements here and there. Then I did a partial recap on my pre-amp, just changed out 12 caps in the sound path. WOW, what a difference, changed everything, had no idea what I was missing!! That lead to a FULL refresh on both pre and power amps. OMFG, HUGE difference! More detail, more dynamics, bigger soundstage, more bass, more mid, more treble. But most of all, the noise floor almost vanished! 

Had no idea what people really were talking about when they said inky blacks, or dark sound. Low noise floor. During a soft passage to loud, I literally jump in my chair now. When it's quiet, it's really quiet!!! Now I fully understand what a low noise floor does. 

My point is, we don't always fully understand what others are trying to tell us, or what certain things really mean, until we experience them for ourselves. Now, I totally can hear all the background noise, totally miss all the detail on other systems. 

calvinj

‘It is usually against those who spend money on more expensive equipment and cabling. Why is this so prevalent?’

Its called PENnIeS Envy!

They either don’t have one, can’t afford one, or are intimidated and feel others equipment  (not literally) …are bigger!

Thats my logic!

This issue doesn't put me on the defensive or make me angry.

It's pretty simple, actually. Sometimes someone tells me I cannot hear something, and I ask if there's another ways to listen. Often, there is.

Hearing, like the other senses and taste in general, can be developed. I have learned to hear better because other people have helped me to become attentive in a new way. 

                                              Once again:

     No one can tell you whether/how your system, room and/or ears will respond to some new addition.   There are simply too many variables.

     LIKEWISE: no one can possibly know whether a new addition (ie: some kind of disc, crystal, fuse, interconnect, speaker cable, etc)  will make a difference, in their system and room, with their media and to their ears, without trying them for themselves.   

     Some companies offer a 30 Day Satisfaction Guarantee, so- those that are actually interested, have absolutely nothing to lose by trying (experimenting with) such.     

     Anyone that knows anything about the sciences, realizes that something like 96% of what makes up this universe, remains a mystery.       

     For centuries; humanity’s seen, heard, felt and otherwise witnessed phenomena that none of the best minds could fathom, UNTIL they developed a science or measurement that could explain it.     

     The Naysayers want you to trust their antiquated science (1800’s electrical theory) and faith-based, religious doctrine, BLINDLY (their credo: "Trust ME!"). 

     Theories have never proven or disproven anything.  It’s INVARIABLY testing and experimentation that proves or disproves theories/hypotheses.   

     IF you’re interested in the possibility of improving your system’s presentation, have a shred of confidence in your capacity for perceiving reality and trust your own senses: actually TRY whatever whets your aural appetite, or- piques the curiosity, FOR YOURSELF.         

                 The Church of Denyin'tology HATES it, when THAT happens!

                         WELL: the Cargo Cult's still building runways.

                                          Time for another repost:

Cargo cult science is a pseudoscientific method of research that favors evidence that confirms an assumed hypothesis. In contrast with the scientific method, there is no vigorous effort to disprove or delimit the hypothesis.[1] The term cargo cult science was first used by physicist Richard Feynman during his 1974 commencement address at the California Institute of Technology.[1]

Cargo cults are religious practices that have appeared in many traditional tribal societies in the wake of interaction with technologically advanced cultures.

     Do a bit of research and you'll learn those primitives were limited in their understanding of what they saw with their eyes, based on their prior experience, education and BIASES.

                                                A rewind:

                 It isn't that the Denyin'tologists are ignorant.

               It's they're knowing* so much, that's WRONG.

                       *heart of the Dunning-Kruger Effect

                                              OR, two:

     The Church of the Naysayer Doctrine (like every other faith-based, religious cult) has as many dopes as it does Popes.   

     Bring up anything resembling SCIENCE/PHYSICS, dated later than the 1800’s and they become apoplectic, not having the formal education to comprehend the concepts, or- possible ramifications.    THAT would be hilarious, were it not so pathetic!        

           Gimme That Old Time Religion, Gimme That Old Time Religion, etc.

        At the very first mention of something as simple as Wave Function (a BASIC tenet of Quantum Mechanics), the Cargo Cult will label you a KOOK.

        But remember: they can only view/understand you, based on their limited experience, education and BIASES.

         They have overlooked the fact that, if not for the hypotheses/theories and experimentation, regarding Quantum Mechanics: a plethora of modern conveniences, medical devices and the gear they so love, would not exist.

          Had scientists, chemists and inventors shared the doctrines of the Cargo Cult (Denyin'tologists), there would be no semiconductors, computer chips, LASERs, or Magnetic Resonance Imaging devices (MRIs).

                                         Solid State amps?

                                     OOPS (back to tubes)!

                                        Your Smart Phone?

                                        FA'GET ABOUT IT!

                                         Your car's GPS?

                                                NOPE!

    Then too: some may be willfully ignorant and just enjoy being contentious.

                        Others: obtuse, uneducated*, misinformed?

      *Typically, from what's been exhibited here: H.S. STEM, if that, would be a safe inference.

      Either way: the result, when the Cult begins it's rhetoric, is a classic demo of the Dunning- Kruger Effect.

                                          But, I digress: 

       Bring up those pesky details, regarding the likes of QED, Dielectric Absorption, Poynting's theorem and possible application/effects, relative to frequency, that our musical signals are carried via photon or wave, outside the conductor and you're a KOOK?

         Again: the Cargo Cult can only understand anyone with an actual background, experience and education in Physics/QED, based on their own beliefs, (limited) education, experience and biases.                                      

     One anecdote that some may find interesting; about their walks in the woods and how Richard Feynman's father would encourage him to look beyond the fact that something in nature exists, into why and how.

     It saddened him that while attending college, during a visit home and one of their walks; his dad asked what he was learning in college.

     At that moment he realized: if he tried to explain what he was learning, there was no way his dad could understand.                               

                            It wasn't an insult or condescension.

                                                Just reality.

                                  Oh well: let the cult go build a runway!

                                                        references:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applications_of_quantum_mechanics#:~:text=Examples%20include%20lasers%2C%20electron%20microscopes,systems%2C%20computer%20and%20telecommunication%20devices.

https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsquantum-mechanics#:~:text=Quantum%20mechanics%20led%20to%20the,the%20science%20of%20quantum%20mechanics!

https://uwaterloo.ca/institute-for-quantum-computing/quantum-101/quantum-applications-today

          But: I'm, "religious", because I believe in the SCIENCE, from which all that sprang?

     https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/five-practical-uses-spooky-quantum-mechanics-180953494/

           Einstein got that last one wrong (Quantum Entanglement), BUT- I still wish he'd been alive, when the Hubble Telescope proved, what he considered his, "greatest blunder" (his inability to bring symmetry to his field equation, without lambda)

.https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200507/history.cfm#:~:text=Einstein's%20original%20equations%20had%20been,how%20the%20universe%20will%20end.                                     

                                            How about that?

Another example of a hypothesis/theory, with no way to EXPERIMENT/MEASURE, what you're sure must be there, in some detectable way, or another.

                                               Just for fun:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/6-times-quantum-physics-blew-our-minds-in-2022/

                                            Happy listening!

     Feynman was and will remain, my favorite lecturer (yeah: I'm that old).

     He mentioned often (and: I took to heart) his favorite Rule of Life: "Never stop learning!"

     For all his genius, he never grew overly confident in his beliefs.    The perfect obverse to the Dunning-Kruger sufferer.

     ie:  “I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing.  I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong.”

     and: “I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything.”

     Tesla is probably my favorite innovator, who (despite the incessant, projectile vomit, from his day's naysayers), took the World, kicking and screaming, into the 20th century, with his inventions.

                                                  His thoughts: 

     “Anti-social behavior is a trait of intelligence in a world full of conformists.”

     “All that was great in the past was ridiculed, condemned, combatted, suppressed, only to emerge all the more powerfully, all the more triumphantly from the struggle.”

@calvinj

calvinj’s original posting question has suddenly morphed somewhat with the three answers received in the last hour.

Gee whiz !

Runaway train…..

Discombobulated ?

————-

What do you make of it calvinj ?

It may be mere apocryhpa, but I've always heard that Oscar Wilde said something along the lines of:

"The need to censor is the most powerful driver of human behavior.  Next to it, the sex drive is barely noticeable."

I’m a try before you buy kind of guy at this point 

Because some people believe in scientific facts and others believe in snake oil marketing.

Some are more interested more in the music than the science of it all. Damn a measurement does it sound good to my ear. Is all I need to know.

Some are more interested more in the music than the science of it all. Damn a measurement does it sound good to my ear. Is all I need to know.

False opposition for me. I’m interested in the science of it because I listen to music. There can be a connection between the science and the immersive experience of the music.

Perhaps this analogy will ring true: no one who bakes at higher altitudes dismisses those little scientific hints about adjusting the temperature. Just because there are crackpots out there with bad or pseudo-scientific advice about baking doesn’t make me ignore the relevant and helpful scientific advice. And I pay attention because following it makes the food "just taste better."

Of course, maybe the point of this discussion is to shake a fist at "those damn measurement people." Not my bag, man.

@hilde45 glad that works for you.  If it measures perfectly and my ear doesn’t like it. IT’S OUTTA THERE. IT’S USELESS. Music is a get away for me.  It’s not work or a science.  It’s an experience.  Anyone who disagrees with me on that part of it. We are not the same or seeking the same.  But if it works for them im not going to judge thier knowledge or experience. Just don’t tell  me I’m not hearing what I’m hearing.  

If you want to be MARVIN THE MARTIAN and you pull out or supernitrospectometer good for your you! But to talk down to other audiophiles saying we are gullible and foolish because we allegedly believe in snake oil to me is intellectually arrogant! 

One of the biggest mysteries in the audiophile community, at least to me, has always been why so many folks seem to forget (or willfully ignore) that we all hear and process sound differently.   I really don't think it's much more complicated than that.  Yes, high-end systems may deliver more timbre, detail, sonics, etc. for ears to process.  But the processing is still done by the same sets of different ears.  Just because additional detail may be presented doesn't mean it will be received and processed, let alone received and process in the same manner as Johnny The Jet Audio Pro.  Different ears are different ears.  And this doesn't even account for variations in listening space acoustics impacting the frequencies that are presented.

There's a reason EQs became so popular and have a rightful place in some audio gear stacks.  

As for the omnipotent trolls?  Ehh.  F 'em.  

Just my 0.03.

hartf36

A true to life heart felt answer.

People should not just be in love with the term ‘audiophile’ or think it makes them special to believe it’s a unique camp or club to be a member of….like ‘hi-end’

Just enjoying the musical experience and pleasure a hi-fi system generates for you is the most important thing here and not the, ‘l have got this or you need that’ mumbo-jumbo.

Thats my logic.

@mylogic ,

Are you related to Paul Harvey?

It is hard to disagree with the proposition that when we post on this forum we should be respectful of each others’ experiences, even when they are diametrically opposed to our own.  But sometimes it seems to me that some people post on public forums solely for the purpose of getting others to confirm their views (just as some trolls post solely to be contradictory, or show supposed “superiority”).  And sometimes these people seem a little defensive even when someone respectfully posts -on a public forum - a different experience or opinion.

@hilde45 - I love your baking analogy btw.

Just don’t tell me I’m not hearing what I’m hearing.

Are you saying no one can help you to pay attention to new things and help you get better at hearing? Ever go birding and have someone show you how to look for birds? I did -- and I learned that I was not seeing what I could be seeing. If you’re saying that you cannot be better at hearing than you are and no one should try to teach you, then I suppose knowing you’re as good as you can be at something -- and that is a kind of accomplishment.

we all hear and process sound differently.

To a degree but if you’re saying it’s so different that we cannot improve or compare, then I don’t see how anyone could ever have created audio equipment with any popularity at all. So, you can’t be saying that.

"baking analogy" -- @mdalton thanks!

I agree w/ those who recognize many audiophiles are siloed, post to seek reassurance, or affirmation,(usually because we get none of that at home) and come to these forums to seek empathy for our unlovable obsession, ("You spent how much for that needle?"), and may risk a terminating bite by daring to nudge ourselves into the lion's pack, only to be sniffed out as lambs.  I paint this woeful scene because...

1. nothing is more painful than rejection by your "betters", those you look up to, want to join with. 

2. This hobby rarely is affirmative beyond our own ears.  Most everyone I know thinks I'm crazy,  building something so "expensive" when I "..can get sound just as good with a bluetooth receiver and iphone".

And 3. The music of today mostly sucks,( sorry, it does), so when I'm caught listening to decades-old music beyond 65db I'm often asked to "turn it down."  I'm just this geezer "living in the past", with "all that black junk, all the wires", and "all those old albums and CDs; can't you move that stuff into the garage?". 

Not only advice, and suggestions, I come here for solace and sanity, because you (mostly), understand.  So, please keep it mind, we're just  trying to keep good company. 

Thecarpathian

‘Are you related to Paul Harvey?’

Wish l was! I wonder what he did with the 10 year $100 million contract he signed?

I did get quite near to a famous ‘Harvey’ in the 70s. I was lucky to see James Stewart in London acting in his stage play, Harvey. Those who know of his original film of the same name will also be aware of his imaginary friend.

I hope some out there ‘get’ the simile l have drawn here…..Like ‘audiophile’ and the imaginary ‘rabbit’…..neither things are real in the end….or are they?

Some people not only think they know better but hear better...yeah ok.

My best advice.  Trust your on ear and ability to hear and identify what you like or don’t like.  It’s you that’s listening. It’s not a science project. It’s music. 

@hilde45 how do you explain the grandmother that doesn't necessarily use science, only experience and intuition to cook a glorious tasting meal.

@mrkrichman 

No two people see Color the same

Actually lots of people see color the same. 8% of males have a congenital color vision deficiency, but only 0.5% of females. Roughly 15% of the general population, regardless of gender have an acquired color vision deficiency, a cataract being one of those potential causes. So most of us actually see color pretty much the same.

What colors we like, or not, is a completely different thing.

How do you know what you know?  How do you know what you don't know?  Am I always right?  Now if I project the answers to these questions onto other people, then I can only conclude that they may or may not know what they are talking about.  It's not unreasonable to be skeptical about what some audiophiles claim.  We should be respectful, but that doesn't mean I think you're credible.

there seems to be this odd assumption among some that someone who values measurements somehow can’t appreciate music as well as a measurement skeptic.  but of course, that’s an obvious logical fallacy.that actually demonstrates its own form of demagogy, or discriminatory behavior.

By way of example, though he didn’t have formal training in math, Bach’s music is widely appreciated to reflect sophisticated mathematical concepts.  Mozart made notes containing mathematical equations in the margins of his compositions.

and, in another art form, let’s not forget that da vinci incorporated mathematical principles into his artistic creations; on the side, he proved the Pythagorean Theorem!

For each of these great artists, i think it’s hard to make a case that their appreciation of measurements diminished in any way the emotional depth of their artistic creations. Rather, i think it would be easier to say that their appreciation for measurements contributed to that depth.

Of course I can hear a gnat fart....more importantly, the dog or the cats...

Spouse can. too. 👍❤

Gives us someone else to blame it on..... 😏

@hilde45 how do you explain the grandmother that doesn't necessarily use science, only experience and intuition to cook a glorious tasting meal.

A recipe is a scientific thing and so is apprenticeship (in person with another person); so is daily trial and error. None of it is guesswork, which seems to be what you're suggesting the grandmother does. Just because there aren't formal measurements or numbers doesn't mean there isn't systematic attention paid to quantities, ratios, timing, and technique. A lot of the audio suggestions flying around lack any of those things with any systematicity.

And finally, acoustics and hearing are fairly precise things. It's harder to get the image and tonality of a singer correct to the ear than make a lasagna taste decent.

AUDIOPHILE…..Supposition :-

If you imagine that you are a good car driver, does it make (in your mind) your car more special too?

If you have a superior hi-fi system, does it make you (in your mind) any more harmonised with music?

Bad drivers who love their cars, keep them well maintained and shiny will still be bad drivers…..

Some ‘audiophiles’ love their system more than anything else, just have to boast about their (imaginary) friend.

The question is……why do some people want to be labeled audiophiles and blast it out like a big multi-note car horn?

l have a high-end system!
Being an audiophile……..

And all that!

Yawn!

We all  adjust our TV's to our liking and we accept that our neighbor with the exact same TV may have different preferences in his settings.

No problem, that's what he likes.

Why the hell can't we do that with audio.

Because of the over-opinionated, slobbery-snobbery out there!

Nothing more, and nothing less…..

@calvinj IMO the issue with Audiophiles is some take a cynical view of this hobby/lifestyle. Others see the possibilities of conveying music for an intimate experience despite the roadblocks and misinformation out there. The naysayers rebuttal always leads to the same tired and irrational cliches...law of diminishing returns, snake oil, audio jewelry, bragging rights, cost validation and the current cliche the over importance of measurements. Audiophiles all have different levels of acceptable refinement not just with gear but also music. If an Adcom amp with JBL’s propped up on milk crates playing poorly recorded Sabbath can shake the walls is the "Holy Grail" run with it. Thankfully some of us want to hear(experience) the subtle macro/micro nuances of well recorded Beethoven/Coltrane/Pavarotti and Pink Floyd that only a certain level of audio components can achieve.

@dayglow i understand exactly.  I’ve had people attack me like I bombed pearl harbor over my opinion.  Look I love refinement, musicality, space between the notes, air and black backgrounds. My system does that in spades. Yes it cost me the price of a car but it brings me joy. That’s all that matters. 

@mylogic exactly. 

@uncleang thats part of it too.  We all like different things. Be happy with your preferences. Don’t push your measurements on me. lol. 

@calvinj Always appreciate when one takes time to reply! It needs to be repeated most of us with true HEA systems have no interest in bragging rights or criticizing others. The negative/cynical fodder usually emanates from budget/vintage or the DIY segment.

@dayglow ive tried a lot of stuff. I been blessed to own and trade up over the years. I’m happy as ever now with my Infigo gear. It was quite the journey getting here. I’ve enjoyed it along the way. I do it for the music. Not to brag. If it don’t sound good it don’t matter. 

There are those whose entire universe is formulated around predetermined outcomes.  "I feel this way, and here are the 'facts' that make it so."  This leads to subjective truths: which (sometimes forcefully) inflicted on others, can't be challenged (according to them).

Yesterday, I learned something new: A colleague suggested that we adopt "un-offendability" as a superpower -- the ability to "hear" things we don't agree with, while maintaining civility.

Yesterday, I learned something new: A colleague suggested that we adopt "un-offendability" as a superpower -- the ability to "hear" things we don't agree with, while maintaining civility.

The true spirit of science -- a hypothetical attitude. For those interested, Stuart Firestein (Columbia biologist and neuroscientist who studies olfactory systems in animals) is great on this.

https://www.ted.com/talks/stuart_firestein_the_pursuit_of_ignorance

@hilde45 ,

Excellent.

The more I know, the more I know I don't know.

Perspective is everything.

To some (maybe most?) here my vintage audio system would probably be considered "mediocre" at best; especially to those who wouldn't think twice about purchasing $5K cables, $10K speakers, etc. I'm sure if I offered it up for discussion and asked for critique I would receive plenty.

Yet, to the average "layperson" who maybe recalls memories of a Dad or uncle who had a higher end system back in the 1960s / 1970s... my system might be looked at as phenomenally good.

Very different perspectives regarding the exact same pieces of equipment and setup.

I will say that I have found satisfaction with where I am now - and I think that is an undervalued position to be in. I do, however, totally understand that for some in this hobby, it's the excitement of the chase, so to speak; the endless quest for improvement - whether through actual scientifically measurable progress or just in the "this sounds better to me"... I don't feel the need to debate either methodology. If that's what floats your boat, it's all good.

@waytoomuchstuff love your last post my brother. 

+1 @cleeds 

Unfortunately turning on most media outlets now produces a large of “experts” all interested in telling you what you should believe and how you should behave.

Or get “our app” and we will tell what you should buy for the rest of the life of your phone!

There is nothing like a guy who has never even listened to smthg tell me what I’m not hearing because I can not trust my brain not to lie to me. GTFOH! 

OP asks what is perhaps the most profound question ever asked here.  It is one which touches upon age-old human behavior far beyond the narrow confines of high-end audio.

Just relax and listen to the music.